Here's what cafeteria Catholicism can do

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Penny Plain:
That’s a heck of a thing to say about people you don’t even know. You can call me a lot of things, and you can call my faith a lot of things (and, thoughtfully, some of you have). Wrong, bull-headed, arrogant, whatever. Calling me and people like me “lukewarm” is silliness.

It’s like you’re just going through the Catechism and the Bible and picking out nasty terms at random.
No, it wasn’t random at all. Someone had posted something about lukewarmness and the Revelation verse came to my mind so I posted it.

In Christ,
Nancy 🙂
 
I am just reading the dialogue here and one question keeps coming up. That question is why a Catholic would admit to being a cafeteria Catholic and then try to defend the label as if it is something to be proud of ? I am proud of my faith and I struggle to be as faithful as I can be, but I will never use a weakness as a badge of courage, so to speak. I may be missing something here.
 
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allhers:
Penny, could I just ask you to give us ONE example of what you don’t believe? Or don’t understand, or that you disagree with?
(I mean, if you could just briefly explain it, perhaps we could understand better and not attack one another.) How’s that? …and sorry about being kind of sarcastic in my first post. I’m like that sometimes because I get “attacked” so much ad nauseum…(not by you, but in my personal life.) Thank you.
Perhaps Penny, not everyone was talking directly to YOU, I however, did post this directly to you and you didn’t respond to me at all.
 
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allhers:
Perhaps Penny, not everyone was talking directly to YOU, I however, did post this directly to you and you didn’t respond to me at all.
True. However, another poster pointed out that I already had given such an example (see my post # … rats! Where’d the numbers go?) in my 1:04 pm post on September 18. I thought that answered your question. If that post didn’t answer your question, let me know and I’ll expand.

The short answer is that (among other things) I don’t agree with the Church’s stance opposing civil gay marriages and its teachings on infalliblity.

AHA! See post #58.
 
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emsvetich:
I am just reading the dialogue here and one question keeps coming up. That question is why a Catholic would admit to being a cafeteria Catholic and then try to defend the label as if it is something to be proud of ? I am proud of my faith and I struggle to be as faithful as I can be, but I will never use a weakness as a badge of courage, so to speak. I may be missing something here.
I’m the resident “cafeteria Catholic.” No, I don’t like the label. I find it insulting because of the implication that I and people like me pick and choose what we’re going to believe because of personal convenience.

I use it here because it’s going to get applied anyway, so it just saves time. And I’m trying not to get my hackles up about it because I don’t think people realize just how discourteous it is.

I appreciate your questions, and I’ll try to answer them. I am not sure what you mean by “using weakness as a badge of courage.” I am open and honest about my faith, just as many others are here. My faith, and my view of Catholicism, is different from that expressed by many here. You (and many others) may see it as weakness; I don’t. I also see no reason that I should conceal or misrepresent what I believe here, and I see no reason to be ashamed of it.
 
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ncjohn:
The point I was trying to make (in my probably much too wordy way :o ) is that the ways we form our consciences–how we get to where you’re addressing–and what we accept as credible guides in this process, are greatly influenced by our experiences in life. The people we’re addressing here have largely had their consciences formed, rightly or wrongly, and already have made some determination of credibility that now must be addressed after the fact. How we are to do that is really what’s at issue in my mind.
That goes to the basic premise. As a Catholic we accept the Church as the authority. If we claim some other authority, then we are rejecting the faith. I cannot see any other way of nuancing it. One can make all manner of arguments to justify rejecting the objective truth, those arguments are poor no matter how sincere. How one chooses to express this thought may vary depending upon circumstances.
I think we can all agree that the Church has had its share of mistakes that have deeply hurt people, both at the historical and at the personal level. As an example, my own mother will probably never set foot in a Catholic church again because when my father died, the parish priest commented that my father had treated him rudely at some point and he didn’t want anything to do with the funeral. A Methodist minister presided at my father’s funeral although he had been Catholic from birth and had built that parish’s hall for cost on his own time.
I do not want to comment on individual cases. In a general way, you are claiming that bad experiences “turn off” folks. Yes, many act on an emotional level solely.
I think we can also probably agree that there are far too many Catholics who get overzealous, in-your-face judgmental, and anything but Christlike in their treatment of fellow Catholics,especially if they sense that someone may be “less Catholc” than them. I see it in these forums all the time, and I’m sure you do too, and it pains me deeply to see this division. These kinds of situations in our lives damage credibility for the Church, and for some that credibility cannot be rebuilt.
These fora are a tiny part of folks lives. IMO, the more common case is that the “cafeteria” Catholics are in postions of authority and can foist errors on many. Poor catechesis is everywhere today and much of it stems from the notion one may decide for themselves what is right and what is wrong. That tendency is destroying our civilization.
Most that I know though who reject infallibility but still want to be called Catholic, still cling to the Church’s dogmas and accept the core truths of the Church and the gospel calling.
You mean part of the Gospel calling?
 
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fix:
Poor catechesis is everywhere today and much of it stems from the notion one may decide for themselves what is right and what is wrong. That tendency is destroying our civilization.
Fix, I read this as an assertion that you personally do not decide for yourself what is right and what is wrong. I’m confused.

At some point, you must have decided that it was right for you to wholeheartedly and completely accept the Church’s moral teachings and decided it was wrong for you to accept the moral teachings of, I don’t know, the Church of the Final Atonement.

Instead, you’re saying we can (and must) for ourselves what is right and what is wrong, but the only correct answer is the one you’ve chosen. Right? Or am I missing something?
 
Penny Plain:
Fix, I read this as an assertion that you personally do not decide for yourself what is right and what is wrong. I’m confused.

At some point, you must have decided that it was right for you to wholeheartedly and completely accept the Church’s moral teachings and decided it was wrong for you to accept the moral teachings of, I don’t know, the Church of the Final Atonement.

Instead, you’re saying we can (and must) for ourselves what is right and what is wrong, but the only correct answer is the one you’ve chosen. Right? Or am I missing something?
Penny, I am not picking on you, or anyone. I try to keep my remarks general. I think I understand your position, but I disagree with it and try to show reasons why I think it is not correct.

As regard to conscience my position is that our consciences do not invent right and wrong. Here is a quote that says it well:

1776 "Deep within his conscience man discovers a law which he has not laid upon himself but which he must obey. Its voice, ever calling him to love and to do what is good and to avoid evil, sounds in his heart at the right moment. . . . For man has in his heart a law inscribed by God. . . . His conscience is man’s most secret core and his sanctuary. There he is alone with God whose voice echoes in his depths."47

God is the author. We cannot decide for ourselves that something is good, when it is in fact evil. These determinations are not something we invent, rather the moral law is revealed to us. Through divine revelation, reason and faith we can form our consciences so as to make the correct choice.
 
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fix:
Penny, I am not picking on you, or anyone. I try to keep my remarks general. I think I understand your position, but I disagree with it and try to show reasons why I think it is not correct.

As regard to conscience my position is that our consciences do not invent right and wrong. Here is a quote that says it well:

1776 "Deep within his conscience man discovers a law which he has not laid upon himself but which he must obey. Its voice, ever calling him to love and to do what is good and to avoid evil, sounds in his heart at the right moment. . . . For man has in his heart a law inscribed by God. . . . His conscience is man’s most secret core and his sanctuary. There he is alone with God whose voice echoes in his depths."47

God is the author. We cannot decide for ourselves that something is good, when it is in fact evil. These determinations are not something we invent, rather the moral law is revealed to us. Through divine revelation, reason and faith we can form our consciences so as to make the correct choice.
I don’t feel like you’re picking on me, Fix, and I like this quote about conscience. I don’t disagree with a word of it.

Your conscience has led you to full assent to the teachings of the Church. Mine hasn’t. Presumably, God authored both consciences and one set of moral laws. You’ve chosen one set, which is the set that our Church prescribes; I’ve chosen a slightly different set. But we’ve both chosen, which was the only point of my post to you.

What happens now?
 
**[
The Inconvenient
Conscience
](http://www.firstthings.com/ftissues/ft0505/articles/pell.html)
firstthings.com/ftissues/ft0505/articles/pell.html

George Cardinal Pell

…In other words, a Catholic conscience cannot accept a settled position against the Church, at least on a central moral teaching. Any difficulty with Church teaching should be not the end of the matter but the beginning of a process of conversion, education, and quite possibly repentance. Where a Catholic disagrees with the Church on some serious matter, the response should not be “that’s that—I can’t follow the Church here.” Instead we should kneel and pray that God will lead our weak steps and enlighten our fragile minds, as Newman recommends in his Sermon 17, “The Testimony of Conscience.”

Of course, this view of conscience seems profoundly counterintuitive to modern readers. For Newman, conscience is a hard, objective thing—a challenge to self, a call to conversion, and a sign of humility. And this sits uncomfortably with those who see conscience as a sign of freedom, and freedom as the right to reject what is unpalatable…

This specifically Catholic view rejects the mistaken doctrine of the primacy of conscience and clearly asserts the primacy of truth. “It is always from the truth that the dignity of conscience derives,” the pope writes. “In the case of the correct conscience, it is a question of the objective truth received by man; in the case of the erroneous conscience, it is a question of what man, mistakenly, subjectively considers to be true. It is never acceptable to confuse a ‘subjective’ error about moral good with the ‘objective’ truth rationally proposed to man in virtue of his end, or to make the moral value of an act performed with a true and correct conscience equivalent to the moral value of an act performed by following the judgment of an erroneous conscience.”…

Much of the debate over conscience in Catholic circles focuses on the possibility of a conscience set against the Church’s teaching. This seems to me a peculiar notion. For a start, it seems to mean that dissenters believe that following the Church on, say, contraception or same-sex relationships, would actually give them a guilty conscience. Yet it seems clear that most dissenters do not fear guilt if they obey the Church. What they fear is precisely the frustration of their unsatisfied desires…

I suspect that much of the contemporary debate over conscience is driven by a pseudo-Christian impulse towards individual autonomy. Where the world once valued autonomy as the recognition that we are bound by moral laws, it now understands autonomy as the existential liberty to compose our lives, and even reality, for ourselves. It is as though modern and postmodern man is staging a rerun of the primeval fault of our first parents. We stand on the brink, seeking a way forward, accepting no moral guidance in advance of the choice. Yet, as with the first parents, moral guidance is there. A law has been given, and the choice we are faced with is the ancient one: Do I freely obey, or disobey?..**
 
Penny Plain:
I don’t feel like you’re picking on me, Fix, and I like this quote about conscience. I don’t disagree with a word of it.

Your conscience has led you to full assent to the teachings of the Church. Mine hasn’t. Presumably, God authored both consciences and one set of moral laws. You’ve chosen one set, which is the set that our Church prescribes; I’ve chosen a slightly different set. But we’ve both chosen, which was the only point of my post to you.

What happens now?
There is only one set of laws. There is only one truth. If your understanding of truth contradicts mine, then either one is right and one is wrong , or we are both wrong. Truth cannot contradict truth. So, what you are asking is how do I know my understanding is correct and yours is incorrect?
 
In my experience, every single time I had a problem with a teaching, it was my ignorance. Once the orthodox position was read or explaiined in full I would invariably see that it made more sense than my own ideas. It surpassed the scope, breadth and depth of my own. And the clear answer of orthodoxy always refreshes the mind.

That article cornered this thread. Good job Fix. Hit the nail on the head.

Orthodoxy can only be resisted by ignorance. The truth is the truth and in and of itself is power.

in XT
 
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fix:
That goes to the basic premise. As a Catholic we accept the Church as the authority. If we claim some other authority, then we are rejecting the faith. I cannot see any other way of nuancing it. One can make all manner of arguments to justify rejecting the objective truth, those arguments are poor no matter how sincere. How one chooses to express this thought may vary depending upon circumstances.

I do not want to comment on individual cases. In a general way, you are claiming that bad experiences “turn off” folks. Yes, many act on an emotional level solely.

These fora are a tiny part of folks lives. IMO, the more common case is that the “cafeteria” Catholics are in postions of authority and can foist errors on many. Poor catechesis is everywhere today and much of it stems from the notion one may decide for themselves what is right and what is wrong. That tendency is destroying our civilization.

You mean part of the Gospel calling?
I have great respect for your knowledge and reasoning fix, but I’ll stand behind my comments and my main point, which I’ve made several times, which has nothing to do with condemning or defending any individual, but how we are to deal with the woundedness in each person we meet.

I’ll step aside now so as to not belabor the point or get any more redundant than I have.
 
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AquinasXVI:
Orthodoxy can only be resisted by ignorance.
On behalf of all “cafeteria Catholics,” I thank you for your compassion and your sincere understanding of the efforts we have gone to for the sake of trying to understand and follow the will of God.

I am with NCJohn. I am tired of beating my head against this particular wall. I have gone to great lengths to explain where what you folks insist in labeling as “cafeteria Catholicism” comes from. The response? It comes from ignorance.

Anybody who wants to continue the discussion can PM me, especially AllHers, who thinks I am ignoring (insert objective pronoun of appropriate gender here). I have learned a lot about your views in this thread. If you haven’t learned about mine, I don’t think there’s anything further I can really say.

Bye bye.
 
Well to tell you the truth, I have no reason to say anymore than fix has said, apparently you don’t have a rightly formed conscience and you just don’t see it yet. I will pray for you, please pray for me too. I don’t think I am any better than you are, just more informed is all. I don’t think when someone said that you were ignorant that they meant it in a mean way, they just meant that you were not completely aware of all that the Church teaches…yet. That doesn’t mean you never will be, only that you aren’t there yet. It’s a life long process, some just have taken more time at it or studied it better, or just have been given more, who knows? Anyway, I won’t be doing any private messages. Anything I said here is free for all to read. I don’t like labels either, however, you are really the only one that I see saying cafeteria Catholic so much. That is picking and choosing what you want to believe isn’t it? I choose to believe all that the Church teaches, and when I don’t understand something, I do as a good Priest does who converted to the Catholic Church, he said he studies until he learns where he, himself went wrong. The Catholic Church isn’t going wrong. Yes, individuals do, but the Church itself is Jesus’ teachings. I’m not sure you understand infallibility either, so perhaps that would be a good place for you to start. This site and www.ewtn.com would be good places to start to learn. Plus the Cathechism you said you had access to online. God bless you. I believe He finds all who seek Him with a sincere heart. Pray that the Holy Spirit guide and direct you, I will. I do. It sure doesn’t hurt to ask the Blessed Mother’s intercession either, I do that too.
 
I think Penny Plain strikes a chord we all hear inside. She is courageous for bringing it out, and I want to thank her.

I hear this alot from non-Catholic and Catholic friends. They read, interpret, ponder and choose. I do not know the Bible as well, or current events (like the same sex marriage issue, or stem cell research). But, I know there is an expert interpretation I can count on. I know there is an authority, knowledge, and spirit greater than myself, and it is the one holy catholic and apostolic Church. Now, I will cling to this even when it seems wrong. If it needs changing, it will change when it is time. If I need changing, hopefully that too will come in time, for I’m afraid of making any more mistakes. And truthfully, I don’t have the time to research every issue.

But I want to explore this kind of dissent more. People express this all the time. We are educated to doubt and reason for ourselves. It splits science and religion. It is the patchwork of protestant faiths. For me, it was the way I was erroneously raised in the Catholic faith. But the term “cafeteria” implies a consumer approach to faith, which is insulting, because it’s deeper than that. It’s tied up in personal identity, cultural ideals of independence and self-reliance, elected not appointed authority, an education that holds skepticism, factual knowledge, and personal relevance above all else, a culture that holds personal freedom, and freedom of speech more sacred than loyalty and morality. I could go on and on with this list, but I guess what I’m calling for is a more meaningful label, at the least. Maybe this would be a start in bringing home these Catholics. Maybe we should call them Independent Catholics, or Secular Catholics, or Doubting Cathlics. St. Thomas Catholics might be better, for maybe they just want that kind of convincing.
 
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ncjohn:
I have great respect for your knowledge and reasoning fix, but I’ll stand behind my comments and my main point, which I’ve made several times, which has nothing to do with condemning or defending any individual, but how we are to deal with the woundedness in each person we meet.

I’ll step aside now so as to not belabor the point or get any more redundant than I have.
John,

I have no superior insight or intellect. If you follow any of my posts you will see they are not very deep or sophisticated. I have no advanced degree in theological matters. I try to use logic and try my best to obey the Church.

The issues that I find most attractive are the ones that I find most troubling. Our world is not headed in a good direction. We as Catholics should be trying to change the world for better. There are many ways this may be done, but if many of us are intentionally rejecting the truth as Christ has revealed it to us that is not helping and may in fact make raising our children that much harder.

When folks, especially young kids, get mixed messages about right and wrong and incorrect messages about the role of conscience that is troubling. Parents have as their goal to help lead their spouse and children to heaven. We need all the help we can get. When the few, or many, in the Church promote error as virtue that just places one more unneeded obstacle in the road.
 
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soccerDad:
I think Penny Plain strikes a chord we all hear inside. She is courageous for bringing it out, and I want to thank her.
Yes, I, too, thank her for sharing her opinions. I think her sharing may help her and those of us who disagree. Penny, please do not be overly upset by any of this. That is certainly not my goal.
But I want to explore this kind of dissent more. People express this all the time. We are educated to doubt and reason for ourselves. It splits science and religion. It is the patchwork of protestant faiths…It’s tied up in personal identity, cultural ideals of independence and self-reliance, elected not appointed authority, an education that holds skepticism, factual knowledge, and personal relevance above all else, a culture that holds personal freedom, and freedom of speech more sacred than loyalty and morality.
Well said. I think you have summarized these issues perfectly.
 
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