Heresies

[Gabriel_of_12]

While I might view certain aspects of Christian virtue as admirable (and desireable), I admit the idea that a god would have created a universe with the intention of eventually coming to earth on a suicide mission, is simply not plausible to me (notwithstanding I believed this claim for most of my life). Moreover, how we can say god is all loving and consistently trustworthy, yet on the other hand have murdered thousands of Egyptian infants and young children?

 

[ralphinal]

Well, first let me say I reject the historicity of events like the Exodus (which is at this point a view consistent with modern mainstream archeology, notwithstanding there’s obviously some dissent among scholars, but of course the dissent tends to come from biblical scholars and others engaged in apologetics, in one form or the other).

However, going beyond that to a purely philosophical critique, if we simply look at the events themselves (as the stories are told), the mass murder of infants and young children is difficult to reconcile with love (no matter how primitive or modern the perspective). The god of the bible is a mass murderer of infants, no way around it. Now you have to try and come up with reasons why the mass murder of infants can be consistent with love.

I’d rather think the mass murder of infants cannot be consistent with love, and the creator of this universe would not have killed sentient, innocent beings simply to provide a pretext for things he planned to do later.

Not really. In the case given, it was the only sign that got through to Egypt. They were given multiple chances, and each time, they prevented the release of the Children of Israel. It was only with the impact of the last one that they were freed.

There are ways to explain it, but I will use this one. Let’s say that a young person is doing something that their parents disagree with. A warning is given, but no behavior changes. Next, the parents restrict activities, but no change. And it goes on until the parents are forced to do something drastic, like involve the courts or cut them off financially. Who is to blame? Is there love on the part of the parents?

 

[bridgeforsale]

Not really. In the case given, it was the only sign that got through to Egypt. They were given multiple chances, and each time, they prevented the release of the Children of Israel. It was only with the impact of the last one that they were freed.

It wasn’t “they” was it? It was solely the Pharoah who resisted the will of god. So infants were mass murdered to compel the decision of a political leader. Now that’s what I call perfect love

There are ways to explain it, but I will use this one. Let’s say that a young person is doing something that their parents disagree with. A warning is given, but no behavior changes. Next, the parents restrict activities, but no change. And it goes on until the parents are forced to do something drastic, like involve the courts or cut them off financially. Who is to blame? Is there love on the part of the parents?

Or, what if it’s a father whose disobeying his king (which is a better analogy). The king warns the father again and again (and punishes him a little more severely each time he refuses to capitulate to the kings directive). Finally, the king kills the man’s first born son, and the man (fearing for the lives of the rest of his children) capitulates.

What a king!

I mean, come on …

 

[ralphinal]

It wasn’t “they” was it? It was solely the Pharoah who resisted the will of god. So infants were mass murdered to compel the decision of a political leader. Now that’s what I call perfect love

Or, what if it’s a father whose disobeying his king (which is a better analogy). The king warns the father again and again (and punishes him a little more severely each time he refuses to capitulate to the kings directive). Finally, the king kills the man’s first born son, and the man (fearing for the lives of the rest of his children) capitulates.

What a king!

I mean, come on …

I have been trying to think of a way to communicate what i am thinking. I am not really having much luck. As a father myself, I see no issue with doing whatever you need to protect your child.

 

[Dokimas]

So, how do you think the early local church communities dealt with such situations before the books of the NT were compiled and agreed upon?

Peace,
Robert

Letters written by Paul, Peter, James, John, Matthew, Mark and Luke were passed around. The early church leader, some of who I already menioned where the general authorities of the churches they founded.

 

[Dokimas]

Thank you; as far as your list? I respectfully commented to your rejection of them, and commented briefly to your list of objections for the sake of clarity for you and anyone passing by the threads; at no charge to you, of course. I would just hope and pray that you and possibly others would know and understand what you are rejecting, before you reject them?

I don’t look at it as rejecting the CC or its teachings. I look at it that I have the responsibility for my understanding and I find differences from the CC so I’m not able to fall under its authority.

 

[Love_is_Patient]

Letters written by Paul, Peter, James, John, Matthew, Mark and Luke were passed around. The early church leader, some of who I already menioned where the general authorities of the churches they founded.

And then what happened if two church leaders disagreed? What did they do then? Say, that one leader believed everyone had to be circumcised and another taught that it was unnecessary?

Love is Patient

 

[Teneas]

Letters written by Paul, Peter, James, John, Matthew, Mark and Luke were passed around. The early church leader, some of who I already menioned where the general authorities of the churches they founded.

They all reported back to the apostles however.

 

[Dokimas]

Now you have to try and come up with reasons why the mass murder of infants can be consistent with love.

I’d rather think the mass murder of infants cannot be consistent with love, and the creator of this universe would not have killed sentient, innocent beings simply to provide a pretext for things he planned to do later.

Maybe your understanding is incomplete. Let me illustrate, please.​

What would you think of a millionaire who took a thousand dollars from you? You’d be mad, I suspect. Correct? What would you think of that person if after he took the money from you he deposited in your checking accout a million dollars? You’d forget your hatred of the person and be very greatful. Correct?​

Well, about all those babies that died during the flood or due to wars, etc. that you blame God for killing the, What if that same God fook the souls of those babies, gave them brand new bodies that would never feel pain, never get sick or never die and put them in a place of real peace and joy and happiness for a long, long, long time? I don’t think you’d hate that God; you’d begin to see the love He has for babies. He’s got that love for you as well.

 

[Dokimas]

They all reported back to the apostles however.

yep; not just to Peter. Seems Paul and James had more authority than Peter. Paul in the churches he founded; James in Jerusalem.

 

[bridgeforsale]

Maybe your understanding is incomplete. Let me illustrate, please.​

What would you think of a millionaire who took a thousand dollars from you? You’d be mad, I suspect. Correct? What would you think of that person if after he took the money from you he deposited in your checking accout a million dollars? You’d forget your hatred of the person and be very greatful. Correct?​

Well, about all those babies that died during the flood or due to wars, etc. that you blame God for killing the, What if that same God fook the souls of those babies, gave them brand new bodies that would never feel pain, never get sick or never die and put them in a place of real peace and joy and happiness for a long, long, long time? I don’t think you’d hate that God; you’d begin to see the love He has for babies. He’s got that love for you as well.

That glosses over (really avoids) the central point, and it’s a weak justification. We’re not merely talking about an act of omission (e.g. god failing to rescue), rather we’re talking about an affirmative act (e.g. god killing the first born children of Egypt in an act of vengence, predicated on a vendetta that traces back to similar action by the sitting Pharoah at the outset of the Exodus narrative, and designed to compel action by that political leader).

It presents the god of the universe, the creator of it all, the alpha and the omega, as no better than a two bit thug who uses the threat of violence to achieve desired results, and abuses his power by exacting horrific and disproportionate revenge on those who don’t comply with his whims.

Oh and by the way, let’s not forget that god was responsible for the Jews supposedly going to Egypt in the first place e.g. the story of Joseph, the son of Jacob. All this is presented as a contemplated scheme by god to prefigure Christ. In other words, for the mere purpose of providing pretext for things he intended to do later, god murdered what must have numbered in the hundreds of thousands (according to most biblical interpretations anyway) if you include not only the Jewish infants who were murdered (which, the story infers god predicted, yet still inticed the Jews into Egypt), but also the Egyptian infants, and Egyptian soldiers (allegedly killed in the red sea incident).

Thankfully modern archeology discounts any reasonable likelihood the Exodus story describes a real historical event (so it becomes much easier for me to acquit god of this horrific accusation).

 

[Dokimas]

That glosses over (really avoids) the central point, and it’s a weak justification. We’re not merely talking about an act of omission (e.g. god failing to rescue), rather we’re talking about an affirmative act (e.g. god killing the first born children of Egypt in an act of vengence, predicated on a vendetta that traces back to similar action by the sitting Pharoah at the outset of the Exodus narrative, and designed to compel action by that political leader).

It presents the god of the universe, the creator of it all, the alpha and the omega, as no better than a two bit thug who uses the threat of violence to achieve desired results, and abuses his power by exacting horrific and disproportionate revenge on those who don’t comply with his whims.

Oh and by the way, let’s not forget that god was responsible for the Jews supposedly going to Egypt in the first place e.g. the story of Joseph, the son of Jacob. All this is presented as a contemplated scheme by god to prefigure Christ. In other words, for the mere purpose of providing pretext for things he intended to do later, god murdered what must have numbered in the hundreds of thousands (according to the biblical narrative) if you include not only the Jewish infants who were murdered (which, the story infers god predicted, yet still inticed the Jews into Egypt), but also the Egyptian infants, and Egyptian soldiers (allegedly killed in the red sea incident).

Thankfully modern archeology discounts the reasonable probability the Exodus could have happened (so it becomes much easier for me to acquit god of this horrific accusation).

I wasn’t saying the children died by omission. God sent the flood. God took Pharoah’s curse and turned it on him and children died.​

God is full of mercy and grace. He is also just. Young that die He takes to Himself. Adults that die go to their just reward (or lack of reward) depending upon what they do with their Creator.​

Sorry I couldn’t help your misunderstandings. That’s the best I can do to help you understand. Take care.

 

[bridgeforsale]

I wasn’t saying the children died by omission. God sent the flood. God took Pharoah’s curse and turned it on him and children died.​

God is full of mercy and grace. He is also just. Young that die He takes to Himself. Adults that die go to their just reward (or lack of reward) depending upon what they do with their Creator.​

Sorry I couldn’t help your misunderstandings. That’s the best I can do to help you understand. Take care.

That’s really it isn’t it? At the end of it all you have to either accept a very inadequate explanation, or not.

God’s justice (as you call it) in the case of Egypt was to punish the actions of one man, by ordering the murder of innocent infants and young children. Of course as penalty for not believing a truly rational god could behave in such a way, your religious system proposes the just desert should be an eternity roasting in hell (never mind how obviously self-serving that claim is).

To me this stuff reduces to the absurd

 

[Dokimas]

That’s really it isn’t it? At the end of it all you have to either accept a very inadequate explanation, or not.

God’s justice (as you call it) in the case of Egypt was to punish the actions of one man, by ordering the murder of innocent infants and young children. Of course as penalty for not believing a truly rational god could behave in such a way, your religious system proposes the just desert should be an eternity roasting in hell (never mind how obviously self-serving that claim is).

To me this stuff reduces to the absurd

I’d say your understanding of the god you think you see in the Bible is inadequate. May that’s why you think my explanation falls short.​

What I’ve said about the Egyptians children is that God has a far greater plan due to His love for them than their parents did.​

BTW, what god to you believe in?

 

[bridgeforsale]

I’d say your understanding of the god you think you see in the Bible is inadequate. May that’s why you think my explanation falls short.​

What I’ve said about the Egyptians children is that God has a far greater plan due to His love for them than their parents did.​

I’m sorry but this just seems like semantics to me. Either god killed thousands of infants or he didn’t. I for one cannot think of a single case where I could excuse the mass murder of infants, and yes I expect a perfectly rational and good god not to behave worse than the worse madman in recorded history (save maybe Hitler and Stalin, but even those guys didn’t specifically target infants).

BTW, what god to you believe in?

I don’t pretend to be able to define god. I just believe there is a god, and he (or she or it) must be a rational and immensely intelligent being. But I was raised in a very typical Protestant/Catholic environment (although I have several Jewish friends ).

 

[wisdomseeker]

That glosses over (really avoids) the central point, and it’s a weak justification. We’re not merely talking about an act of omission (e.g. god failing to rescue), rather we’re talking about an affirmative act (e.g. god killing the first born children of Egypt in an act of vengence, predicated on a vendetta that traces back to similar action by the sitting Pharoah at the outset of the Exodus narrative, and designed to compel action by that political leader).

It presents the god of the universe, the creator of it all, the alpha and the omega, as no better than a two bit thug who uses the threat of violence to achieve desired results, and abuses his power by exacting horrific and disproportionate revenge on those who don’t comply with his whims.

Oh and by the way, let’s not forget that god was responsible for the Jews supposedly going to Egypt in the first place e.g. the story of Joseph, the son of Jacob. All this is presented as a contemplated scheme by god to prefigure Christ. In other words, for the mere purpose of providing pretext for things he intended to do later, god murdered what must have numbered in the hundreds of thousands (according to most biblical interpretations anyway) if you include not only the Jewish infants who were murdered (which, the story infers god predicted, yet still inticed the Jews into Egypt), but also the Egyptian infants, and Egyptian soldiers (allegedly killed in the red sea incident).

Thankfully modern archeology discounts any reasonable likelihood the Exodus story describes a real historical event (so it becomes much easier for me to acquit god of this horrific accusation).

So, you thought.

do you ever attribute any evil and violence to man? or just to God? would you like God to see unjust go umpunished? do you believe that man alone is just?

 

[bridgeforsale]

So, you thought.

do you ever attribute any evil and violence to man? or just to God? would you like God to see unjust go umpunished? do you believe that man alone is just?

These questions are red herrings aren’t they? Do you think it’s righteous to murder thousands of innocent infants and young children to punish or compel the actions of a single man?

A simple yes or no answer without all the obfuscations would be great.

 

[wisdomseeker]

These questions are red herrings aren’t they? Do you think it’s righteous to murder thousands of innocent infants and young children to punish or compel the actions of a single man?

A simple yes or no answer without all the obfuscations would be great.

you like asking questions yet you refuse to answer questions. please answer these simple questions.

who murdered thousands of innocent infants? God?

 

[bridgeforsale]

you like asking questions yet you refuse to answer questions. please answer these simple questions.

who murdered thousands of innocent infants? God?

He ordered the murders, same thing.

 

[wisdomseeker]

He ordered the murders, same thing.

i am waiting for the answers to my first questions.

who ordered the murders of infants? God did? how? please explain to me what in the world are you talking about?