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thistle
Guest
It is not possible. If it did happen it would mean Christ lied and as he is God we know that can’t happen!
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commenter
Guest
True. And even if a quote appears in a book that itself has an imprimatur that does not assure the content of the quote.Eddie18:
There can be many quotes and bits from Google books about whether a pope can become a heretic , but these quotes and bits from Google books , are they Magisterial pronouncements ? I think not .
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tweedlealice
Guest
Historically,there was a time of Schism w three Popes. Heresy is a strange phenomenon. Meaning, certain teachings that pulled away from the larger thinking group would be put in notice of their error. Could have death penalty. Now. Ethiopian Church is recognized, I think. At least acknowledged. They have a few doctrines that are different. They go back to Jesus. Their writings are in Aramaic. HOLY COW! Thank God the cow isn’t Holy! SIGH. The Maranite Catholic Church has similar doctrines as Rome. Some age requirements are different to time when sacraments can be given. They are under Rome. The Irthodox Church was considered heretical and in 500AD(?). The Templars were sent to eradicate them. That’s why we have bad feelings today. Doctrines very similar. Whose to be boss? POPE or BISHOP?? Politics…
It’s wonderful that the Ethiopians have such writings. They have word of mouth treasures. Jesus, Mary and Joseph fleeing from Herod, ran to Egypt. They travelled awhile w Herrod’s troops following. There is a toddler’s foot print in a rock in a certain area, that is suppose to be Jesus’s foot.
Heresies, initially, were just one facet of doctrine. Was Jesus only man or God. Rome=both. If not reconciled=punishment and banishment.
Can it happen? It has and can still occur. Evil is alive everywhere, including the church. Staying aligned,w theology of church,is important. But we are not trolls. We think. Not to challenge but agree.
In Christ’s Love
Tweedlealice
It’s wonderful that the Ethiopians have such writings. They have word of mouth treasures. Jesus, Mary and Joseph fleeing from Herod, ran to Egypt. They travelled awhile w Herrod’s troops following. There is a toddler’s foot print in a rock in a certain area, that is suppose to be Jesus’s foot.
Heresies, initially, were just one facet of doctrine. Was Jesus only man or God. Rome=both. If not reconciled=punishment and banishment.
Can it happen? It has and can still occur. Evil is alive everywhere, including the church. Staying aligned,w theology of church,is important. But we are not trolls. We think. Not to challenge but agree.
In Christ’s Love
Tweedlealice
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commenter
Guest
HeDa:
Except that the pope is not limited to councils. Pope Pius XII could and did define the Assumption outside any council. But councils, or colleges of bishops, are subject to the pope’s authority. They have to be in unity with the CURRENT pope to exercise their own collegial authority. Refer to Lumen Gentium.
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Vico
Guest
No. Vatican I:
- The Church is indefectible, that is, she remains and will remain the Institution of Salvation, founded by Christ, until the end of the world. (Sent. certa.)
- In the final decision on doctrines concerning faith and morals the Church is infallible. (De fide.)
- The totality of the Bishops is infallible, when they, either assembled in general councilor scattered over the earth, propose a teaching of faith or morals as one to be held by all the faithful. (De fide.)
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Kathleen18
Guest
I am not angry. I just had no idea they were anathema.
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YoungApologist3
Guest
Source? I don’t see how to teach that the Orthodox, who actively deny the filioque, are in heresy is in contradiction of the teaching of the Church.
Either way, I suppose I just never considered that communion could be broken without heresy occurring. I suppose that happened at the time we had three “popes.”
So does this mean that when a church gets a new patriarch, communion is broken until he requests communion with Rome? And that also, it’s not 100% necessary to be in communion with Rome to be considered Catholic by Rome?
Either way, I suppose I just never considered that communion could be broken without heresy occurring. I suppose that happened at the time we had three “popes.”
So does this mean that when a church gets a new patriarch, communion is broken until he requests communion with Rome? And that also, it’s not 100% necessary to be in communion with Rome to be considered Catholic by Rome?
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QwertyGirl
Guest
Always you with the homosexuals, @seagull. You never stop with that. Can’t you focus on somthing else, or do you really think that is the biggest issue the Church is up against? Just curious. You can’t seem to be in a thread without mentioning it, so I thought I would ask.
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JRS_831
Guest
That would actually be Maronite.
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Escabrosa
Guest
It’s a valid concern, just as abortion, and cotraception are. Recent Pew Research polls show that more Catholic laity than not are in favor of gay marriage even though it is a mortal sin and the teaching can’t change. There are clergy that are supportive of it as well. These are people who are swayed by popular consensus and conform to the times. The same goes for abortion and birth control. These are just a few examples.
It makes you wonder, do these people who openly reject the tenets of their faith know what they’re doing? Do they know they are committing heresy?
There are even clergy who are in favor of blessing so called same-sex marriage. Definitely a valid concern.
It makes you wonder, do these people who openly reject the tenets of their faith know what they’re doing? Do they know they are committing heresy?
There are even clergy who are in favor of blessing so called same-sex marriage. Definitely a valid concern.
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commenter
Guest
The totality of bishops is authoritative when they are in union with the current pope.YoungApologist3:
No. Vatican I:
Council of Trent and Vatican I
- The Church is indefectible, that is, she remains and will remain the Institution of Salvation, founded by Christ, until the end of the world. (Sent. certa.)
- In the final decision on doctrines concerning faith and morals the Church is infallible. (De fide.)
- The totality of the Bishops is infallible, when they, either assembled in general councilor scattered over the earth, propose a teaching of faith or morals as one to be held by all the faithful. (De fide.)
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QwertyGirl
Guest
They don’t care. It doesn’t matter to them. They see a wrong and they fix it to the best of their ability.
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Escabrosa
Guest
No, they’re promoting unhealthy behavior that adversely affects themselves and society at large. I do agree with you on one thing though, that many don’t seem to care.
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Wm777
Guest
Christian Theology has an entire branch of research dedicated to sin called “Hamartiology”. You might want to focus your queries in that direction.
Heresy is a rather general term.
Apostacy and/or maybe Schizmaticism are more likely better terms to contemplate because they seem to put the problem you describe more into perspective.
The apostacy of one cleric, for instance, is not necessarily of the same magnitude as a schizm; and a schizm, as an isolated rogue movement within the church, would by no means circumscribe the entire church.
To be completely honest, we’re all a bunch of sinners in need of salvation; Christ came not to judge, but to save… That not one of us should be lost… That we might remain in Him as He does in us… Though the apostles were even themselves thrown out of the synagogues - Christ commands us in John to love one another as he loved us - even to death…
That said, if someone leaves the church because they think the church heretical - it’s not really the same thing as being thrown out…
Heresy is a rather general term.
Apostacy and/or maybe Schizmaticism are more likely better terms to contemplate because they seem to put the problem you describe more into perspective.
The apostacy of one cleric, for instance, is not necessarily of the same magnitude as a schizm; and a schizm, as an isolated rogue movement within the church, would by no means circumscribe the entire church.
To be completely honest, we’re all a bunch of sinners in need of salvation; Christ came not to judge, but to save… That not one of us should be lost… That we might remain in Him as He does in us… Though the apostles were even themselves thrown out of the synagogues - Christ commands us in John to love one another as he loved us - even to death…
That said, if someone leaves the church because they think the church heretical - it’s not really the same thing as being thrown out…
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Wm777
Guest
Ah! The old indefectable, infallibility argument.
The meaning and applications of “indefectible” and “infallible” are worth recounting, as they are not insignicant here…
What is the church? The Mystical body of Christ.
In so far as the church remains in Christ, so then it remains indefectible and infallible - but the mystery of the crucified and broken man upon the tree - who overcame the world and draws us to himself when we break bread at communion - is derived from the perfection and divinity of Christ himself, in God alone…
All of us are broken and in need of repentance… Man’s intentions may vary, and - in fact - we are all flawed… But that’s why we go to church… because… while every one of us struggles with temptations and sin - even Priests and Clergy - we all have recourse to the church’s ultimate intention expressed in the economy of salvation Christ’s deposit of faith…
It is not man, but Christ Jesus who is perfect - our indefectible and infallible Redeemer… That is the meaning of the Church’s indefectibility and infallibility…
As such - we should never really expect our fellow man to be anything but humbled by that perfection we may only really know after we pass over into the next life…
The meaning and applications of “indefectible” and “infallible” are worth recounting, as they are not insignicant here…
What is the church? The Mystical body of Christ.
In so far as the church remains in Christ, so then it remains indefectible and infallible - but the mystery of the crucified and broken man upon the tree - who overcame the world and draws us to himself when we break bread at communion - is derived from the perfection and divinity of Christ himself, in God alone…
All of us are broken and in need of repentance… Man’s intentions may vary, and - in fact - we are all flawed… But that’s why we go to church… because… while every one of us struggles with temptations and sin - even Priests and Clergy - we all have recourse to the church’s ultimate intention expressed in the economy of salvation Christ’s deposit of faith…
It is not man, but Christ Jesus who is perfect - our indefectible and infallible Redeemer… That is the meaning of the Church’s indefectibility and infallibility…
As such - we should never really expect our fellow man to be anything but humbled by that perfection we may only really know after we pass over into the next life…
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Vico
Guest
And as Cardinal Gasser gave in his relatio at Vatican I, See The Gift of Infallibility, Gasser, O’Connor, pages 44-50, that papal authority is not separate: not apart from, or opposed to, or set over against the entire Church, even though the promise of Christ of the aid of the Holy Spirit to the role of sucessor of Peter in matters of faith and morals is, in a sense, different than that of the indefectability and infallibility in truth promised to the entire Church.Vico:
The totality of bishops is authoritative when they are in union with the current pope.YoungApologist3:
No. Vatican I:
Council of Trent and Vatican I
- The Church is indefectible, that is, she remains and will remain the Institution of Salvation, founded by Christ, until the end of the world. (Sent. certa.)
- In the final decision on doctrines concerning faith and morals the Church is infallible. (De fide.)
- The totality of the Bishops is infallible, when they, either assembled in general councilor scattered over the earth, propose a teaching of faith or morals as one to be held by all the faithful. (De fide.)
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QwertyGirl
Guest
Well at least you are honest about it, I guess.
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commenter
Guest
Given the horizontal age in which we live, I suggest there is more likelihood of erring on the collegiality extreme, than the opposite way. For instance, we are likely to de emphasize the unique role of the pope, as one of the bishops. In the same way, we are more likely tempted to de emphasize the role of the bishop, to make him just one more member of the diocesan clergy, all more or less equal. In the parish, there is a temptation to regard the pastor as simply one more member of the parish council, one leader among a dozen more or less equal leaders.
In families, the culture seems to de emphasize the unique roles of the father and mother, to make them and the children all more or less equal or interchangeable, in 2018.
I do not deny there may have been tendencies in the past to go to the other extreme; just pointing out the dominant temptation in 2018.
In 2018 we may have different kinds of bias or blind spots than Gasser was noticing, in the highly vertical, stratified culture of the nineteenth century. That is not 2018.
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Eddie18
Guest
I would add that, while the Church is indefectible and totality of the Bishops infallible, this does not prevent a large majority of the bishops from falling into heresy. If you read up on the Arian heresy you will see the majority of the clergy in the Church at the time fell for it.
St. Athanasius, who fought the Arians every step of the way, was quoted as saying, “They claim that they represent the Church; but in reality, they are the ones who are expelling themselves from it and going astray. Even if Catholics faithful to Tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ.”. This confirms that heresy can indeed consume a majority of the Church, leaving the true Church very small, but the promise of indefectibility will always remain such that the true Church could never possibly be completely extinguished.
St. Athanasius, who fought the Arians every step of the way, was quoted as saying, “They claim that they represent the Church; but in reality, they are the ones who are expelling themselves from it and going astray. Even if Catholics faithful to Tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ.”. This confirms that heresy can indeed consume a majority of the Church, leaving the true Church very small, but the promise of indefectibility will always remain such that the true Church could never possibly be completely extinguished.
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pablope
Guest
Well…how do you reckon that the Reformers where the ones who committed heresy…and not the Catholics?Theban:
It has. It’s known as the Reformation.
Yes, that was tongue-in-cheek and flippant, but any schism has two sides. And one side’s heresy is the other side’s True Church, in principle in any schism.
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