Heresy: To declare that someone is in hell?

[Confiteor_Deo]

It is not a heresy to believe that someone is in Hell or going to Hell since you are not denying any teaching of the Church. It’s a sin, but not the sin of heresy. The one person that we can say is in Hell is Judas. St. Alphonsus said, “Poor Judas! Above seventeen hundred years have elapsed since he has been in Hell, and his Hell is still only beginning.”

 

[runningdude]

…

“Heresy” seems like a misuse of the term since that is a departure from doctrine, and people going to hell is in complete conformity with Catholic teaching, but to declare a specific individual in hell would be to speak without any authority…

 

[PRmerger]

It is not a heresy to believe that someone is in Hell or going to Hell since you are not denying any teaching of the Church. It’s a sin, but not the sin of heresy. The one person that we can say is in Hell is Judas. St. Alphonsus said, “Poor Judas! Above seventeen hundred years have elapsed since he has been in Hell, and his Hell is still only beginning.”

I think you are going above and beyond your paygrade here. The Church hasn’t declared him to be in hell, therefore we can’t declare him to be.

We can, of course, speculate, as St. Alphonusus did.
But it doesn’t seem to be a thing one would want to be wrong about. Imagine saying that Judas is in hell when he’s actually enjoying the beatific vision right now! O, how chilling that is to make such a mistake, eh?

 

[Cory]

It’s just not going to help the conversation at all. But is not heresy. It is uncharitable.

 

[Usagi]

Of course, what the atheist is usually complaining about is people telling him that atheism is a mortal sin, and therefore that to persist knowingly and willingly in it leads to damnation.

That is the kind of thing we are competent to say, following the lead of the Church. We are not saying that any specific deceased person is now in Hell, nor even that the living person before us is unavoidably damned … but calling a key part of someone’s identity damnable is still going to feel like you’ve just said “You’re damned.”

 

[PRmerger]

Of course, what the atheist is usually complaining about is people telling him that atheism is a mortal sin, and therefore that to persist knowingly and willingly in it leads to damnation.

As an apologetics measure I really wouldn’t recommend telling an atheist that his atheism is a mortal sin.

It’s an otiose endeavor since they don’t believe in God, don’t believe in mortal sin.

And not only is it useless, it’s also insulting, and counter-productive and ends up creating a negative culture for dialogue.

 

[ShanPO]

As an apologetics measure I really wouldn’t recommend telling an atheist that his atheism is a mortal sin.

It’s an otiose endeavor since they don’t believe in God, don’t believe in mortal sin.

And not only is it useless, it’s also insulting, and counter-productive and ends up creating a negative culture for dialogue.

That sort of begs the question, and might need another thread, but is atheism a mortal sin?

 

[zz912]

I think you are going above and beyond your paygrade here. The Church hasn’t declared him to be in hell, therefore we can’t declare him to be.

We can, of course, speculate, as St. Alphonusus did.
But it doesn’t seem to be a thing one would want to be wrong about. Imagine saying that Judas is in hell when he’s actually enjoying the beatific vision right now! O, how chilling that is to make such a mistake, eh?

Jesus Himself declared Judas would end up in hell. He said it was better for him to have never been born. If someone ends up in Heaven, no matter how long the time in Purgatory, it is NOT better that they were never born.

The Church has never officially declared a particular individual is in hell, because it is simply not her authority. It is Christ’s. And He has declared it. The Church DOES teach that people are in hell, but doesn’t specify who.

Warning people/atheists that they are risking going to hell is an act of charity. Such an act of charity can be carried out in good or poor ways. Hopefully people will do so in a good manner, but the truth needs to be proclaimed.

 

[Usagi]

That sort of begs the question, and might need another thread, but is atheism a mortal sin?

Subject to the usual caveats about knowledge and consent, I cannot see how it wouldn’t be. For a Christian to stop believing in God would be a form of apostasy, and someone who starts out not believing in God is unlikely to seek baptism to begin with.

For any given individual atheist, since they have usually either been hurt by religion or honestly think their position is where the evidence leads or both, I would allow wide latitude for not being personally culpable, but in a vacuum atheism is a denial of the first and most basic truth of the Faith (and of reality).

 

[Genesis315]

No one is condemned to Hell until their particular judgment. Therefore, it is heresy to say they are condemned to Hell while they are still alive because it is dogma that the particular judgment comes right after death (cf. CCC 1021-1022).

Someone who persists until death in atheism would certainly be condemned to Hell, since one cannot be saved without faith (cf. Heb. 11:6; CCC 161). However, since we also acknowledge that, in ways known only to Himself, God can lead those who through no fault of their own are ignorant of the Gospel to that faith without which it is impossible to please him (cf. CCC 848), we cannot say with certainty whether a particular person died without faith.

That’s why we cannot pass judgment on someone.

 

[PRmerger]

That sort of begs the question, and might need another thread, but is atheism a mortal sin?

Atheism objectively is a mortal sin.

However, to discern whether an atheist is guilty of this sin is a different matter.

 

[PRmerger]

No one is condemned to Hell until their particular judgment. Therefore, it is heresy to say they are condemned to Hell while they are still alive because it is dogma that the particular judgment comes right after death (cf. CCC 1021-1022).

Someone who persists until death in atheism would certainly be condemned to Hell, since one cannot be saved without faith (cf. Heb. 11:6; CCC 161). However, since we also acknowledge that, in ways known only to Himself, God can lead those who through no fault of their own are ignorant of the Gospel to that faith without which it is impossible to please him (cf. CCC 848), we cannot say with certainty whether a particular person died without faith.

That’s why we cannot pass judgment on someone.

 

[PRmerger]

Jesus Himself declared Judas would end up in hell. He said it was better for him to have never been born.

Well, that’s simply your interpretation of that particular verse in Scripture.

Our Church has not declared him to be there, therefore I don’t either.

It’s actually quite chilling for you to declare him to be so, if, in reality, he’s actually not! :bigyikes:

If someone ends up in Heaven, no matter how long the time in Purgatory, it is NOT better that they were never born.

Perhaps Christ wasn’t talking about eternity, but only the fact that he knew Judas would suffer tremendously because of his actions, and “it would have been better for him never to have been born” so as to not suffer in this manner.

 

[steve_b]

Yes.

But the question is: can we as Catholics declare that a particular person is condemned to go there?

It is fair to say to any person, as a Catholic, what Paul said and taught in his letters

Building an Example: using a list of sins Paul mentions, and picking just one of them

From Jesus own lips

Jn 17:
20 "I do not pray for these only, but also for those who believe in me through their word, 21* that they may all be one; even as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 The glory which you have given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, 23 I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that you have sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.

What about those who don’t remain perfectly one?

Paul had this to say about THEM who wouldn’t remain perfectly united, and instead cause dissent and division

Romans 16:17-20 (links operational)
[17] Now I beseech you, brethren, to mark them who make dissensions διχοστασίας ] and offences contrary to the doctrine which you have learned, and avoid them. [18] For they that are such, serve not Christ our Lord, but their own belly; and by pleasing speeches and good words, seduce the hearts of the innocent. For your obedience is published in every place. I rejoice therefore in you. But I would have you to be wise in good, and simple in evil. And the God of peace crush Satan under your feet speedily.

That Greek word there διχοστασίας ]for dissent / division in Romans, doesn’t say in Romans, what will specifically happen to those individuals who cause dissent and division. We know what they do is evil, and they don’t serve Jesus but their own selfish interests, but the consequences for that sin to the individual isn’t there in Romans, it’s described in Galatians. The one(s)who are in that sin, when they die, will be in hell for all eternity if they don’t return to the Catholic Church

Galatians 5:19-21
Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are fornication, uncleanness, immodesty, luxury, Idolatry, witchcrafts, enmities, contentions, emulations, wraths, quarrels, dissensions, διχοστασίας ] sects, Envies, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like. Of the which I foretell you, as I have foretold to you, that they who do such things shall not obtain the kingdom of God.

Is Paul judging those who do that? No. He’s giving a warning inspired by the Holy Spirit, of what will happen to a soul who is guilty of that sin or any of the others mentioned at death.

 

[PRmerger]

Is Paul judging those who do that? No. He’s giving a warning inspired by the Holy Spirit, of what will happen to a soul who is guilty of that sin or any of the others mentioned at death.

I don’t think any of those verses support telling another person that he is condemned in hell/going to hell/destined for hell.

All they are are beautiful reminders of what we sins we should avoid.

 

[steve_b]

I don’t think any of those verses support telling another person that he is condemned in hell/going to hell/destined for hell.

All they are are beautiful reminders of what we sins we should avoid.

Let me ask you, what does the following mean to you

“they who do such things shall not obtain the kingdom of God.”

to make this even more specific, those in purgatory will go to heaven. They will obtain the kingdom of God. So we aren’t talking about THEM

OR

Let’s consider another sin

2089 "*Heresy *is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same;

(all emphasis mine)

Titus 3:10
“As for a man who is factious ( αἱρετικὸν heretic ), after admonishing him once or twice, have nothing more to do with him, 11 knowing that such a person is perverted and sinful; he is self-condemned.”

 

[PRmerger]

Let me ask you, what does the following mean to you

“they who do such things shall not obtain the kingdom of God.”

to make this even more specific, those in purgatory will go to heaven. They will obtain the kingdom of God. So we aren’t talking about THEM

Oh, to be sure there are things that we do which will earn us a place in hell.

No one is arguing against that.

What is being argued is that we can’t know which of us is going there.

Why? Because we can’t know the state of a person’s heart at the moment of their death.

 

[steve_b]

Oh, to be sure there are things that we do which will earn us a place in hell.

No one is arguing against that.

What is being argued is that we can’t know which of us is going there.

Why? Because we can’t know the state of a person’s heart at the moment of their death.

Look at what I said.

(emphasis mine)

"Is Paul judging those who do that? No. He’s giving a warning inspired by the Holy Spirit, of what will happen to a soul who is guilty of that sin or any of the others mentioned* at death.** "*

The Catechism teaches the same

(all emphasis mine)

**1035 **The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. *Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, *where they suffer the punishments of hell, “eternal fire.” The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.

 

[PRmerger]

Look at what I said.

"Is Paul judging those who do that? No. He’s giving a warning inspired by the Holy Spirit, of what will happen to a soul who is guilty of that sin or any of the others mentioned* at death.*** "

The Catechism teaches the same

(all emphasis mine)

**1035 **The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, “eternal fire.” The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.

Amen!

We are all agreed here that hell exists.

Not sure why you think you needed to show this?

 

[steve_b]

Not sure why you think you needed to show this?

I wasn’t sure why you needed to say the following to me

“we can’t know the state of a person’s heart at the moment of their death.”

When I already gave the caveot of one who dies in grave sin.