Heresy: To declare that someone is in hell?

[PRmerger]

I wasn’t sure why you needed to say the following to me

“we can’t know the state of a person’s heart at the moment of their death.”

When I already gave the caveot of one who dies in grave sin.

Sure. And you can’t know that an atheist is dying in grave sin.

QED

 

[Vico]

Atheism objectively is a mortal sin.

However, to discern whether an atheist is guilty of this sin is a different matter.

The Catechism teaches that an atheist may be culpable:

1790 A human being must always obey the certain judgment of his conscience. If he were deliberately to act against it, he would condemn himself. Yet it can happen that moral conscience remains in ignorance and makes erroneous judgments about acts to be performed or already committed.

 

[PRmerger]

The Catechism teaches that an atheist may be culpable:

1790 A human being must always obey the certain judgment of his conscience. If he were deliberately to act against it, he would condemn himself. Yet it can happen that moral conscience remains in ignorance and makes erroneous judgments about acts to be performed or already committed.

Of course.

 

[steve_b]

Sure. And you can’t know that an atheist is dying in grave sin.

QED

Re: “I can’t know”

That’s true.

However, It’s not my knowledge of their state, as they are dying, at stake here, it’s their knowledge of their state that’s the important issue. So that said, I can’t presume a dying atheist is innocently ignorant of things they need to know. **1791 **

Therefore erring on the side of safety, I would treat them as if they are up to their eyeballs in mortal sin, and give them what information I had to give, if the chance was there to give it before they died.

It’s interesting you bring this example up. I’m currently dealing with a family member in this very condition.

 

[PRmerger]

Therefore erring on the side of safety, I would treat them as if they are up to their eyeballs in mortal sin, and give them what information I had to give, if the chance was there to give it before they died.

Sigh.

Let me know how that works for you, telling your family member that she’s going to hell for her atheism.

 

[zz912]

Well, that’s simply your interpretation of that particular verse in Scripture.

No, it’s not an interpretation.

John 17:12 While I was with them, I protected them in your name that you have given me. I guarded them, and not one of them was lost except the one destined to be lost, so that the scripture might be fulfilled.

The words “destined to be lost” is translated as “son of perdition” in other translations. Perdition is utter damnation. Jesus DIRECTLY says Judas is destined to be lost/damned.

Perhaps Christ wasn’t talking about eternity, but only the fact that he knew Judas would suffer tremendously because of his actions, and “it would have been better for him never to have been born” so as to not suffer in this manner.

Jesus was born to suffer, and suffered more than any man has ever suffered. Why would extreme suffering in Purgatory, even if it lasted until the Second Coming, be worse than never being born? EVERY single person in Purgatory eventually goes to Heaven. No amount of suffering in Purgatory would overcome our outweigh eternity in Heaven.

 

[steve_b]

Sigh.

Let me know how that works for you, telling your family member that she’s going to hell for her atheism.

Are you thinking by deliberately keeping quiet, avoiding any conversation of hell, an atheist dying in that state is going to avoid hell?

 

[PRmerger]

Are you thinking by deliberately keeping quiet, avoiding any conversation of hell, an atheist dying in that state is going to avoid hell?

Not sure why you think you are limited by these 2 rather extreme choices: 1) saying nothing
2) saying she’s going to hell.

Surely you can think of some other things that could be done, yeah?

 

[PRmerger]

No, it’s not an interpretation.

John 17:12 While I was with them, I protected them in your name that you have given me. I guarded them, and not one of them was lost except the one destined to be lost, so that the scripture might be fulfilled.

The words “destined to be lost” is translated as “son of perdition” in other translations. Perdition is utter damnation. Jesus DIRECTLY says Judas is destined to be lost/damned.

It is, of course, an interpretation.

And the Church has seen the wisdom in not interpreting it in the way you have.

You are, of course, free to speculate that this is what it means.

But it’s merely your fallible interpretation.

I happen to believe that it doesn’t mean that Judas is in hell.

 

[steve_b]

Not sure why you think you are limited by these 2 rather extreme choices: 1) saying nothing
2) saying she’s going to hell.

Surely you can think of some other things that could be done, yeah?

I’m not one to be silent or beat around the bush when one is dying, particularly an atheist who happens to be a family member.

If they can hear, then

Romans 10:17

Recognizing full well that

%between%
“To one who has faith, no explanation is necessary. To one without faith, no explanation is possible.” Aquinas

*But still I’m going to give it one last chance
*

 

[Church_Militant]

I’m not one to be silent or beat around the bush when one is dying, particularly an atheist who happens to be a family member.

If they can hear, then

Romans 10:17

Recognizing full well that

“To one who has faith, no explanation is necessary. To one without faith, no explanation is possible.” Aquinas

*But still I’m going to give it one last chance
*

And pray that Divine Mercy Chaplet right there beside their death bed.

 

[PRmerger]

I’m not one to be silent or beat around the bush when one is dying, particularly an atheist who happens to be a family member.

Right. One shouldn’t be “silent”.

But if you’re having a dialogue with an atheist, telling him he’s condemned to hell

1. is not a fruitful way to encourage further dialogue
2. is above your pay grade.

 

[steve_b]

Right. One shouldn’t be “silent”.

But if you’re having a dialogue with an atheist, telling him he’s condemned to hell

1. is not a fruitful way to encourage further dialogue
2. is above your pay grade.

Encourage further dialogue? He is now dead

Re: “above my pay grade”

IMV, The biggest problem today, is people don’t fear God AND they don’t fear hell. He believed in neither, and feared neither.

He knows everything NOW.

 

[PRmerger]

Encourage further dialogue? He is now dead

Re: “above my pay grade”

IMV, The biggest problem today, is people don’t fear God AND they don’t fear hell. He believed in neither, and feared neither.

He knows everything NOW.

Not sure why you think that the Original Post, which was a general* “is it helpful to tell someone he’s going to hell, and isn’t it heresy to do so, and how would you know if he’s going there anyway”.*…should apply to:

-and this atheist is a family member
-who’s on his death bed
-and who is now dead.

You do what you feel you should do for atheist family members who are on their death bed.

This OP was for dialogue and increasing our knowledge. Not for you very specific, (and, frankly, very rare) situation.

 

[PRmerger]

IMV, The biggest problem today, is people don’t fear God AND they don’t fear hell. He believed in neither, and feared neither.

This is a nonsequitur, but I don’t disagree with what you say here, in general.

 

[steve_b]

Not sure why you think that the Original Post, which was a general* “is it helpful to tell someone he’s going to hell, and isn’t it heresy to do so, and how would you know if he’s going there anyway”.*…should apply to:

-and this atheist is a family member
-who’s on his death bed
-and who is now dead.

You do what you feel you should do for atheist family members who are on their death bed.

This OP was for dialogue and increasing our knowledge. Not for you very specific, (and, frankly, very rare) situation.

You started this conversation #1

I entered the conversation here. #34, when my atheist family member (was Catholic but completely turned away from God and the Church) was still alive but dying. I gave him my best shot.

Based on my posts, #34 , #36 , #38 , #40 , #44 , #47 , #50 , #53 ,

And considering your responses back to me, I think you need to re read your opening post.

 

[PRmerger]

You started this conversation #1

I entered the conversation here. #34, when my atheist family member (was Catholic but completely turned away from God and the Church) was still alive but dying. I gave him my best shot.

Based on my posts, #34 , #36 , #38 , #40 , #44 , #47 , #50 , #53 ,

And considering your responses back to me, I think you need to re read your opening post.

I stand by my remarks to you. Every one.

You make some weird dichotomy with: Oh? I can’t tell my dying atheist family member that he’s condemned to hell? Well, then I guess I should just keep my mouth shut and let him burn.

No one has posited anything every remotely close to that.

You seem to be the only one here who has advocated telling an atheist that he’s condemned to hell.

If that’s what you want to do, go for it.

It seems to be against Catholic teaching.

And it seems to be above your paygrade.

And you ought to tremble at the thought that you might be wrong.

But if you feel that works for you, go for it.

(And let us know how that works for you, ok? Tell us if you have anyone saying, “Thanks to your declaration of my eternal destination, I am reconsidering my atheism.”)

 

[steve_b]

I stand by my remarks to you. Every one.

You make some weird dichotomy with: Oh? I can’t tell my dying atheist family member that he’s condemned to hell? Well, then I guess I should just keep my mouth shut and let him burn.

No one has posited anything every remotely close to that.

You seem to be the only one here who has advocated telling an atheist that he’s condemned to hell.

It seems to be against Catholic teaching.

I never said he was condemned to hell. I said if he doesn’t change he would be there. And I quoted scripture and the CCC.NOT myself.

It’s you who disagreed with my quotes. . And where are YOUR references?
P:

And it seems to be above your paygrade.

Look at who I quoted.
P:

.

And you ought to tremble at the thought that you might be wrong.

Look at who I quoted
P:

(And let us know how that works for you, ok? Tell us if you have anyone saying, “Thanks to your declaration of my eternal destination, I am reconsidering my atheism.”)

Your sarcasm aside,

Then Pope Benedict XVI said relativism is our biggest problem today. It’s infected sooooo many people.

 

[PRmerger]

I never said he was condemned to hell

LOL!!!

Ok, then.

Then what you are describing has no place in this thread.

We are talking about whether it’s right and correct to tell someone that he’s condemned to hell.

If you agree with what most everyone else on this thread has asserted: it’s above our pay grade to discern whether someone is going to hell…

and now it appears that you do (!)…

then we are agreed and you have embraced what is Catholic: stop telling someone that he’s going to hell. That’s not for you to know.

 

[PRmerger]

Then Pope Benedict XVI said relativism is our biggest problem today. It’s infected sooooo many people.

Oh, indeed. One of our biggest.

(But I think you may be over-stating his position. I don’t think he said it’s our “biggest” problem today. Or if he did, can you please provide the quote? Thanks).

But you are very Catholic when you say that it’s a problem, to be sure!.