Heresy

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Thanks JR. I am Franklin. The quotes I supplied are from another forum by one who claims to be a Catholic but also believes the teaching of Arnold Murray that Adam and Eve had sex with satan and that Cain and his descendants were the children of satan and Eve on up to the present day to those who call themselves Jews. Where I copied these quotes from and pasted them here are from the forum cultbusters where I am a posting member also. I quoted you there since there are no Catholics there to respond to this persons claims which i consider heresy. I hope you do not mind. I believe this person is ruining the reputaion of the Catholic Church. Here is the link if you wish to see where this so called Catholic poster made his remarks. I am just trying to figure out if this person “John 3:16” can truthfully be a Catholic and also believe such a twisted perverted interpretation of Genesis and the rest to the Bible. Myself I agree with what you posted. Thanks. 🙂

cultbusters.com.au/index.php/topic,52.180.html
:rotfl:

Thanks for the clarification. I thought one of us was losing his mind. LOL

I think I will visit this thread. It sounds interesting. 😛

JR 🙂
 
Hey tristle.
Come on… 4 question marks right after each other… isnt that a little bit extravagant?
And why don’t you get off the brother’s back? you write about “stubborn doubts”… how about calling it “honest doubts” and address them as such. Don’t you know that love is higher than faith? So why dont you give your brother a chance to explain himself instead of talking as though faith is some text book and not Revelation that is a paradox to the human mind most of the time?
I personally don’t give much for untested faith that has not gone though fear and trembling… faith is not something you get finished with so you can speak down to other people like that.
“Are you really a Catholic?” you ask… I might ask you the same … for brotherly love shall define the true Mystical Body of Christ. Its easy to believe in dead letters without having a living relationship with the living God … its much more difficult to be tried in the fire of the Holy Spirit. First, you must become humble.

Big embrace.
Grace <>< 👍
Thanks for your support Grace. While I don’t doubt Thistle’s devoutness, humbleness and people skills, at least on this forum, has never been his strong points.

Not good missionary material, but maybe a canon lawyer. 😉
 
You don’t know what guidance the Holy Spirit has given the Church???
How about what scripture is inspired and make up the Bible?
How about all the teachings you will find in the CCC if you care to read them?
Are you really a Catholic? If you are then you know all the teachings of the Church with regard to faith and morals are true. If you disbelieve one or more of these teachings or as the CCC states have stubborn doubts about any of them then that brings us back to the thread topic!!
If you’ll bother reading my post again, you’ll see I admit I have no way of knowing what guidance the Holy Spirit has given the Church.

Pls don’t question my whether I am Catholic or not. I would not do that to you. I have some doubts, so what? I think most everybody does at one time or another. Does me having doubts make me a heretic? No, thats ridiculous.

I have read the CCC, although no doubt, not as much as you apparently. Keep in mind, knowing the CCC and Scripture inside and out does not make you necessarily a good Christian or Catholic, it takes some other things as well. I’ll stop there and let you dwell on that.
 
Its probably not a “secondary issue” to a Church whose responsibility it is to get you to heaven and to tell you the truth when no one else will.
It’s ultimately up to me to get myself to heaven, not the Church.
 
If you’ll bother reading my post again, you’ll see I admit I have no way of knowing what guidance the Holy Spirit has given the Church.

Pls don’t question my whether I am Catholic or not. I would not do that to you. I have some doubts, so what? I think most everybody does at one time or another. Does me having doubts make me a heretic? No, thats ridiculous.

I have read the CCC, although no doubt, not as much as you apparently. Keep in mind, knowing the CCC and Scripture inside and out does not make you necessarily a good Christian or Catholic, it takes some other things as well. I’ll stop there and let you dwell on that.
Thistle, I apologize for my inference in the last paragraph. While I disagree with you on a number of issues, I let my annoyance get the best of me. Not very Christian of me. Unfortunately, the time to edit had past.
 
Thistle, I apologize for my inference in the last paragraph. While I disagree with you on a number of issues, I let my annoyance get the best of me. Not very Christian of me. Unfortunately, the time to edit had past.
Thanks and I apologise to you too. I’ve been more than grumpy recently because I have not been well but again that’s not an excuse.
 
There is a tendency in religious psychology to confuse doubts with heresy or a lack of faith. Having studied Philosophy of Theology for many years, I can attest that nothing can be further from the truth. The greatest theologians and mystics have become so by exploring their doubts.

If we begin with the John the Evangelist, we see that his gospel is radically different from the Synoptic Gospels. It surpasses historical narrative and dives into Christology, metaphysics, Hellenistic and Judeo literature and logical philosophy. John presents a portrait of Jesus that is like a three-dimensional image that you would see in a CT-Scan. He deals in four cross sections of the mystery of Jesus Christ: hypostatic union, homoousious, signs, and eschatological significance. No other gospel writer treats all four in such depth or in one writing. To produce such profound works as John’s Gospel, his letters and the Book of Revelations one must ask an a priori question. “What does it all mean?”

A fundamentalist mindset may consider such a question a doubt. However, a scholastic mindset would consider such a question as faith seeking understanding. A theological mindset would consider such a question the ground force of true mysticism and the deepest form of contemplation. Doubt that leads to logical questions about faith and proceeds through logical and systematic responses is not doubt, but inquiry. Inquiry rises from man’s natural tendency to aspire to understand the transcendent and to eventually transcend from mere words, rituals and laws to the essence of truth.

For many people this is a rapid process, while for others it is a lifetime journey. It took Francis of Assisi about three years to reach this level of Christological understanding. He went on to become the person whom the Catholic Church calls The Mirror of Perfection. Aquinas, Bonaventure and Teresa of Avila travelled on this journey for more than 20 years. They eventually emerged as Doctors of the Church or Teachers of the Church, which is the meaning of Doctor.

Most Catholics are familiar with Edith Stein, the Jewish Carmelite nun who was executed by the Nazis and know that she converted from Judaism to Catholicism. What many do not realize is that she raised many questions about the nature and existence of God himself, eventually abandoning her Jewish faith and becoming an atheist philosopher. Restless, because her philosophical questions yielded unsatisfactory responses she decided to read The Way of Perfection by Teresa of Avila. Teresa’s logic and no nonsense approach to the faith, without the appeal to this or that authoritative teaching, was so compelling that Edith could not put the book down. She stayed up all night reading it. When she closed the final chapter she said to herself, “This is truth.” This led to her conversion to Catholicism and to following Teresa to Carmel. She eventually became a martyr for both the Jewish and the Catholic faith.

Doubts that lead to questions, questions that lead to search, searches that lead to answers, answers that lead to contemplation, contemplation that leads to union with the Transcendent are part of the same process that the Apostles went through and that has led the Church for two millennia.

Let us be careful not to insinuate that every doubt is evil or leads to evil. A stubborn doubt is different from doubt that leads one through an honest process of search. A stubborn doubt is one which will not allow for questions, much less answers. An honest doubt seeks to formulate the right question and does not rest until it has done so. Only when the question is correctly worded, will the answer satisfy the human soul’s aspiration for truth.

JR 🙂
 
It’s ultimately up to me to get myself to heaven, not the Church.
No, it is ultimately up to Christ Jesus to get you to Heaven. The Church, through her sacraments (especially Baptism and the Eucharist), is the primary vehicle through which the necessary grace is bestowed upon the faithful. Obedience to natural law is essential as well. This is why the Church speaks about natural law (e.g., in reference to artificial birth control), so that the faithful can obey and not put their salvation at risk.

– Mark L. Chance.
 
Ultimately up to ‘you’ to get yourself to heaven and not the Church, mike?

Why are you setting up a false dichotomy of either-or?

It is up to you to choose wisely, mike–and that means that you work WITH the Holy Spirit who was sent to guide us to align yourself WITH Christ (who set up His Church, with which, as it is His bride, He is in perfect union) in order to come TO the Father.

It is ‘both-and’.
 
No, it is ultimately up to Christ Jesus to get you to Heaven. The Church, through her sacraments (especially Baptism and the Eucharist), is the primary vehicle through which the necessary grace is bestowed upon the faithful. Obedience to natural law is essential as well. This is why the Church speaks about natural law (e.g., in reference to artificial birth control), so that the faithful can obey and not put their salvation at risk.

– Mark L. Chance.
No, I disagree, it’s up to me to accept Christ and his teachings, thus hopefully making a path to heaven for me. I can choose to turn away.
 
No, I disagree, it’s up to me to accept Christ and his teachings, thus hopefully making a path to heaven for me.
And if you do that good thing, you have the ability to do because and only because of God’s grace. All good things come from God; without God, nothing is good.

But that really wasn’t my main point. To repeat:
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mlchance:
The Church, through her sacraments (especially Baptism and the Eucharist), is the primary vehicle through which the necessary grace is bestowed upon the faithful. Obedience to natural law is essential as well. This is why the Church speaks about natural law (e.g., in reference to artificial birth control), so that the faithful can obey and not put their salvation at risk.
To reject Church teaching regarding morality pertaining to natural law is to imperil one’s salvation.

– Mark L. Chance.
 
In case you hadn’t noticed this is a discussion forum where everyone may express opinions. This thread was started by Mike in reference to himself on comments by other posters in another thread. The thread is by Mike, about Mike and heresy.
His profile says he is Catholic but he says he only believes ALMOST all the teachings. Sorry but that’s not acceptable. That’s for the Cafeteria Catholic bunch. Catholics must accept ALL teachings in matters of Faith and Morals. There is no wiggle room to choose some and not others. I am not perfect by any stretch of the imagination. I admit it and I need the Sacrament of Reconciliation from time to time. But even as a sinner I still believe ALL the Church’s teachings. Anyone who does not (and this is with regard to the thread topic):

CCC 2089 Incredulity is the neglect of revealed truth or the willful refusal to assent to it. “Heresy is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same; apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; schism is the refusal of submission to the Roman Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him.”
Hey T.
All spoken in charity, a sharing of ideas. Sorry I could not answer to this sooner.
I think we have a different idea of what “a Catholic” is and what he must do in order to earn his name.
Its funny, because I read a book “born fundamentalist, born again catholic” where the author made a point out of saying that the fundamentalists have these lists of points you must be able to believe or they condemn you. He said, Catholicism is not like that… we have “the right measure.”
Its like this for me. as Paul says: I may have all faith but if I dont have love I have nothing. For me Catholic should be the name of a person who loves Christ and who believes basically what Scripture and the fathers taught. If he has some points that he does not understand or cannot accept then these may not be that important, he can rest in what he has and still be better than all the ones who know everything.
As it is written, the letter kills but the Spirit gives life. Therefore its pride to tell a man that he can not call himself a Catholic just because he may doubt certain things. Yes… if he is living in serious sin you must admonish him as a brother in firmness and charity for the sake of the love of Christ… If he questions the creeds then its quite a serious matter since the creeds display the basic truths about Christ and salvation history… However if you make criteria as to what a Catholic must believe concerning a whole bunch of secondary things and not how he must love the Lord, then for me you have gone off at a wrong track. Its the Lord that transforms a man from the inside through the Holy Spirit. The Pharisees knew everything… and so does satan - did you ever realise how well and cunningly satan quotes Scripture? - but this does not imply these are good and healthy believers. I am sure you agree with me.
Its an ideal that we believe in all the teachings of the Church and understand them, also for the sake of our peace, and even more an ideal that the Catholic is a man who loves Christ with all he is and have, repents of his sins because he has seen the Messiah and talked to Him and He has told him everything he has done. Books and doctrines cannot save the world but a soul full of the living fire of the Holy Spirit, works for the Lord and cares not much for names. The rabbis of the Talmud were very clever and rational. they called Jesus a bastard. We believe He is love incarnated.

Ps.I don’t think abyone here has “obstinate denial” but in the face of what seems at times a phariseedic way of being Catholic some of us feel greatly provoked and we indeed ask what a good Catholic is.
According to your own interpretation I do believe certain of the fathers could not even live up to your criteria. 🤷

Shalom.
 
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