Hermit monks plan monastery on remote Wyo. ranch [Incomprehensible Opposition to Catholic Monastery in Wyoming]

[1234]

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, I found the St. Walburga monastery rather cold in atmosphere, not awe inspiring which feeds the eye AND the soul. I for one am tired of uninspiring churches, causal dress and casual attitudes. Gothic spires, traditional chant and high expectations of dress and behavior are not bad things.

Tall Gothic spires don’t belong in Wyoming. Tall minarets don’t either, for that matter.

High expectations, etc and trad chant aren’t being questioned here–architectural taste, consideration of the local environment and appropriateness of vast expenditure in the face of a vow of poverty and and going in the face of what Jesus clearly preached–are being questioned.

Re the Walburga nuns, none is more conservative and orthodox than they–check out that habit and their website.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Tall Gothic spires don’t belong in Wyoming. Tall minarets don’t either, for that matter.

High expectations, etc and trad chant aren’t being questioned here–architectural taste, consideration of the local environment and appropriateness of vast expenditure in the face of a vow of poverty and and going in the face of what Jesus clearly preached–are being questioned.

Re the Walburga nuns, none is more conservative and orthodox than they–check out that habit and their website.

This is a misunderstanding of the vow of poverty and the Wyoming Monks are not part of a religious order so I am not sure that they are even making such a vow.

They are a Public Association of the Christian Faithful in the Diocese of Cheyenne.

I guess their statues as approved by the bishop may contain something about the vows.

I would be interested in Br Jay’s take on this and do the vows as taken by a religious order differ from those taken by a public association of the faithful.

 

[JReducation]

If an association is recognized as either public or private and its constitutions are approved by the local bishop, their vows are valid. It is up to the canonical authority (in this case the bishop) to determine if the vows are public or private. Usually, when an association of this kind is recognized as a public association, the vows are public. As I said, it’s up to the canonical authority to decide this. In either case, the vows are binding. Public and private is used to determine who dispenses them. Public vows can only be dispensed by the local bishop, if the community is of diocesan right and private vows may be dispensed by the confessor. A community of pontifical right goes to the Holy See for its dispensation. A public association is the second step to become a congregation or order. Bishops do have the authority to erect monasteries within their jurisdiction. An association can be monastic.

As to their building and the vow of poverty, the argument against it is a non-issue as far as the Catholic Church is concerned. Monastic communities are allowed to own as much property as they can afford and to build whatever they can afford. The vow of poverty means that the individuals are not owners. The community is the owner. This traces its origins back to the two fathers of Catholic monasticism: Benedict and Basil. Look at the great houses built by the Benedictine and Basilian orders. Monte Casino, Chartreuse, and Citeaux are castles. If one visits many Benedictine houses in this country, one will find that they are like little fortresses. Other enclosed communities are small self-contained villages where they even rent land to the local people. This is how the monks support themselves.

It was never the intention of Benedict and Basil that the monks should be poor. That is a Franciscan introduction to the religious life. St. Francis introduced the concept of austere corporate poverty in 1209. It is only binding on his order, not on other religious families. Even there, it was not binding on the Poor Clares. The Church considers corporate poverty a privilege that she allows to a few religious communities. Those that follow the monastic tradition are not bound by it as a community. Austerity is practiced individually.

Monastics can live in very large buildings, such as the one proposed by the Carmelite monks, while at the same time, their personal quarters are Spartan. A good example of this are the Carthusians, Cistercians, Trappists and Conventual Franciscans. Their houses are designed to proclaim the presence of the City of God among men. Obviously, they will stand out and they should stand out. That’s the purpose for building them, to remind men of the Kingdom of God.

These buildings also serve practical purposes. They are places of study. They have large libraries and study halls. They produce in order to support the monks; therefore, they have workshops or even factories on the compound. Finally, they are centers of Catholic culture. They often have large churches containing all kinds of sacred art forms. Examine the Shrine of the Blessed Sacrament built by Mother Angelica and the Poor Clares of Perpetual Adoration. The place is both a center of worship and a museum. It’s supposed to proclaim the Glory of God.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[57classic]

**Their houses are designed to proclaim the presence of the City of God among men. Obviously, they will stand out and they should stand out. That’s the purpose for building them, to remind men of the Kingdom of God.**These buildings also serve practical purposes. They are places of study. They have large libraries and study halls. They produce in order to support the monks; therefore, they have workshops or even factories on the compound. Finally, they are centers of Catholic culture. They often have large churches containing all kinds of sacred art forms. Examine the Shrine of the Blessed Sacrament built by Mother Angelica and the Poor Clares of Perpetual Adoration. The place is both a center of worship and a museum. It’s supposed to proclaim the Glory of God.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

Libraries! I can hardly wait!! I’ll be one of those, well not tourist more like pilgrim, raising dust down the dirt road to their monastery.

I used to live in Wyoming, I still live on the Great Plains and those spires that rise up on the horizon of little country churches are so beautiful as are the incredibly decorated churches I have visited in Victoria, Park, Damar, and Leoville, KS and several in North Dakota. Those are only the ones I have visited, I know there are more everywhere immigrants were so very thankful to our Lord for a safe place to live that they worked and sacraficed to give our Lord a beautiful home in their community. The churches resemble the ones in those immigrants home countries. I don’t believe that a large beautifully built structure of the type that is culturally recognizable as western (not Western as in “Bonanza” or “Rawhide”) is out of place in Wyoming. Do those who object to the structure want a white clapboard church and with split rail fence around it to keep the cattle and horse herds out? Or is the real objective to not have the monastery built at all?

 

[JReducation]

Libraries! I can hardly wait!! I’ll be one of those, well not tourist more like pilgrim, raising dust down the dirt road to their monastery.

I used to live in Wyoming, I still live on the Great Plains and those spires that rise up on the horizon of little country churches are so beautiful as are the incredibly decorated churches I have visited in Victoria, Park, Damar, and Leoville, KS and several in North Dakota. Those are only the ones I have visited, I know there are more everywhere immigrants were so very thankful to our Lord for a safe place to live that they worked and sacraficed to give our Lord a beautiful home in their community. The churches resemble the ones in those immigrants home countries. I don’t believe that a large beautifully built structure of the type that is culturally recognizable as western (not Western as in “Bonanza” or “Rawhide”) is out of place in Wyoming. Do those who object to the structure want a white clapboard church and with split rail fence around it to keep the cattle and horse herds out? Or is the real objective to not have the monastery built at all?

LOL – don’t get too excited. Most monastery libaries are inside the enclosure.

Fraternally

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Dale_M]

Or is the real objective to not have the monastery built at all?

Those objecting to the project cited concerns about traffic and environmental impact. I don’t see any reason not to take them at their word: they thought the proposal was too large and that it would bring hordes of visitors. The monks were able to allay this opposition by agreeing to discourage random visitors and to limit the number of invited guests.

I am glad that the parties were able to arrange an out of court settlement, and I wish the monks every success.

 

[57classic]

Those objecting to the project cited concerns about traffic and environmental impact. I don’t see any reason not to take them at their word: they thought the proposal was too large and that it would bring hordes of visitors. The monks were able to allay this opposition by agreeing to discourage random visitors and to limit the number of invited guests.

I am glad that the parties were able to arrange an out of court settlement, and I wish the monks every success.

I wonder if the state tourism board and chamber of commerce have a different view. It comes down to NIMBY as mentioned earlier.

 

[OriginalJS]

I’m not sure this is exactly anti-Catholic bigotry, particularly since recently in a heavily Catholic region of Chicago there were protests against a retirement home for nuns and priests. I would consider this more NIMBY than anything else.

I agree. It is practically impossible now to build anything without someone whining and throwing out these standard objections. The monks will just have to remember that patience is a virtue.

 

[Beau_Ouiville]

LOL – don’t get too excited. Most monastery libaries are inside the enclosure.

“The Name of the Rose”

 

[1234]

Libraries! I can hardly wait!! I’ll be one of those, well not tourist more like pilgrim, raising dust down the dirt road to their monastery.

I used to live in Wyoming, I still live on the Great Plains and those spires that rise up on the horizon of little country churches are so beautiful as are the incredibly decorated churches I have visited in Victoria, Park, Damar, and Leoville, KS and several in North Dakota. Those are only the ones I have visited, I know there are more everywhere immigrants were so very thankful to our Lord for a safe place to live that they worked and sacraficed to give our Lord a beautiful home in their community. The churches resemble the ones in those immigrants home countries. I don’t believe that a large beautifully built structure of the type that is culturally recognizable as western (not Western as in “Bonanza” or “Rawhide”) is out of place in Wyoming. Do those who object to the structure want a white clapboard church and with split rail fence around it to keep the cattle and horse herds out? Or is the real objective to not have the monastery built at all?

Libraries? Do CAF posters spend a lot of time in libraries these days? Everything is online, or is going to be by the time that edifice is finished. No, I don’t think many people are going to beat a path in the WY winters to their library.

The concept of their monastery is medieval and equally outdated. The spire is obnoxious and triumphalist in the way Mormon spires are, saying “Look at ME! Look at US! And all of OUR MONEY!!”

And as for the “Poor” Clares and their edifices, I think that their extravagance is all out of keeping with the spirit of their founders and their vows. It was my understanding that Franciscans couldn’t even* own* property.

 

[JReducation]

Libraries? Do CAF posters spend a lot of time in libraries these days? Everything is online, or is going to be by the time that edifice is finished. No, I don’t think many people are going to beat a path in the WY winters to their library.

The concept of their monastery is medieval and equally outdated. The spire is obnoxious and triumphalist in the way Mormon spires are, saying “Look at ME! Look at US! And all of OUR MONEY!!”

And as for the “Poor” Clares and their edifices, I think that their extravagance is all out of keeping with the spirit of their founders and their vows. It was my understanding that Franciscans couldn’t even* own* property.

You understanding is mistaken on several counts.

1. A monastey is a place of prayer. There is nothing outdated about that
2. The specter of a monastery is to remind men of the presence of the Kingdom of God among us. It should resemble the Heavenly Jerusalem, as much as possible.
3. The vow of poverty applies to the individual, not to the religious community. A monastic community may own as much as it needs to do two things: stay alive and make its presence felt. This does not mean that the monks have flat-screen TVs, drive fancy cars or wear Gucci glasses. They have nothing in their cells.
4. Our Holy Father St. Francis and our Holy Mother St. Clare did not impose upon the nuns the absence of communal ownership. That was imposed only on the men. We may not own anything in common and even in that case, there were exceptions: schools, colleges and universities, hospitals and anything else that served to good of God’s people. However, we have to be willing to surrender it, if the Church asks us to do so. Our nuns do not follow the same rule that we friars do. Francis and Clare wrote another rule for them and Pope Gregory IX edited it. They are supposed to own property in common. They do not own it individually. They may not have anything of their own. Their houses are to be centers of prayer for them and for the faithful. Even though they are enclosed, they are to proclaim the grandness of God. This is the triumph of the Glory of God that they proclaim with their archtecture and art forms. God has a right to triumphalism.

If the problem is that someone does not want to see a visible Catholic sign in their community, that’s a whole other issue.

Fraternally,

Br JR, OSF

 

[molly1250]

How many monks are there?

 

[Dale_M]

How many monks are there?

According to a newspaper article published on Oct. 7th, there are currently 18 monks.
powelltribune.com/index.php/content/view/3764/1/

The new monastery is being built to accommodate 40.

 

[fkjuliano]

Tall Gothic spires don’t belong in Wyoming. Tall minarets don’t either, for that matter.

That is just your opinion, yet you state it as if it were fact.

High expectations, etc and trad chant aren’t being questioned here–architectural taste, consideration of the local environment and appropriateness of vast expenditure in the face of a vow of poverty and and going in the face of what Jesus clearly preached–are being questioned.

Jesus never preached against honoring God with one’s very best material resources. In fact, He preached the opposite. The one who really agreed with you was Judas. I quote the relevant passages for the second time, since you apparently missed it the first time around:

Gospel of St. Mark 14

3 And when he was in Bethania, in the house of Simon the leper, and was at meat, there came a woman having an alabaster box of ointment of precious spikenard: and breaking the alabaster box, she poured it out upon his head. 4 Now there were some that had indignation within themselves, and said: Why was this waste of the ointment made? 5 For this ointment might have been sold for more than three hundred pence, and given to the poor. And they murmured against her. 6 But Jesus said: Let her alone, why do you molest her? She hath wrought a good work upon me. 7 For the poor you have always with you: and whensoever you will, you may do them good: but me you have not always. 8 She hath done what she could: she is come beforehand to anoint my body for burial. 9 Amen, I say to you, wheresoever this gospel shall be preached in the whole world, that also which she hath done, shall be told for a memorial of her.

Gospel of St. Matthew 26

6Now when Jesus was in Bethany, in the house of Simon the leper, 7There came unto him a woman having an alabaster box of very precious ointment, and poured it on his head, as he sat at meat. 8But when his disciples saw it, they had indignation, saying, To what purpose is this waste? 9For this ointment might have been sold for much, and given to the poor. 10When Jesus understood it, he said unto them, Why trouble ye the woman? for she hath wrought a good work upon me. 11For ye have the poor always with you; but me ye have not always. 12For in that she hath poured this ointment on my body, she did it for my burial. 13Verily I say unto you, Wheresoever this gospel shall be preached in the whole world, there shall also this, that this woman hath done, be told for a memorial of her.

I submit that these passages are much more to the point than the verse you quoted.

Re the Walburga nuns, none is more conservative and orthodox than they–check out that habit and their website.

The Walburga nuns seem like a group worthy of support, but there is no virtue in putting up buildings as ugly as theirs. Are they attempting a revival of brutalistic architecture?

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

That is just your opinion, yet you state it as if it were fact.

The Walburga nuns seem like a group worthy of support, but there is no virtue in putting up buildings as ugly as theirs. Are they attempting a revival of brutalistic architecture?

A little of the pot calling the kettle black?

 

[57classic]

Where is Gothic architecture apprpriate or proper? Would a collection of teepees be “more” appropriate for the landscape?

 

[JReducation]

I think that the Catholics in that particular community need to lighten up and rediscover their Catholic roots. Whether in Wyoming or in New York City, Gothic architecture is very much a part of the Catholic architectural tradition along with many other forms. More importantly, the particular community needs to thank God that it will have the blessing of a monastic community. Monks and nuns are the soul of the Catholic Church. Without them, where woiuld Catholics be?

Who else gives up ther entire life to pray for the Church, to do penance for those who do not do penance and to make present the Kingdom of God is such a perfect way? The graces that will flow through that geographical area, because it has monks is indiscribeable. This is a teaching of the Church. The contemplative life is the highest form of Gospel living. That’s why bishops want monks and cloistered nuns in their dioceses. They bring with them the power of prayer that no othe Catholic can bring.

The landscape in Wyoming may be lovely. The peace and quiet of the county may be great. The views may be spectacular. The power of contemplative prayer, round the clock, is all that and more. The monks will provide what landscape, enviornment, and location cannot offer.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Hopemercy]

Your point of view, that material resources should not be spent to honor God, is short-sighted and demonstrably in error, as the following passage clearly demonstrates. As God created all of the material world, it is only fitting for us to give back to Him a small portion of all He has given us. That is precisely what the monks from Wyoming are doing, and it is laudable. As to the sale of ancient monasteries in Ireland (presumably for conversion to condos), that is lamentable.

[BIBLEDRB]Matthew 26:6-13[/BIBLEDRB]

OF COURSE material resources should be used to honour God; by obeying Jesus and feeding and clothing Him! Little children dying needlessly is not to the glory of God

True monastics seek simplicity and poverty and to be hidden; no hermit would build a spire of any kind. That is a hidden life.

The verses you quote show YOu to be in grave error as Jesus is of course speaking of His short earthly life.

Short sightd? Yes, a snear as the nearest homeless person sleeping in a church porch; that is Jesus. He needs no huge spires; only food.

Try reading re the Mercy Order? These are not ancient monasteries; and they are only buildings after all. The problem is that that money is not given to the poor.

 

[Dale_M]

True monastics seek simplicity and poverty and to be hidden; no hermit would build a spire of any kind. That is a hidden life.

The spirituality you describe is commendable, but I think you go too far in saying that monks in a grand building are not true to their calling.

For example, the Carthusian Charterhouse at Parkminster, UK. Certainly it appears a grand place, from the outside:
parkminster.org.uk/site.php?use=ourmonastery

However, the lives of the hermits there is anything but grand.
the-hermeneutic-of-continuity.blogspot.com/2006/08/tour-of-carthusian-cell.html

(The link is a rare look inside a cell at Parkminster, and is worth reading)

Grand structures are not for the monks. They are for the inspiration of us outsiders.

 

[Hopemercy]

The spirituality you describe is commendable, but I think you go too far in saying that monks in a grand building are not true to their calling.

For example, the Carthusian Charterhouse at Parkminster, UK. Certainly it appears a grand place, from the outside:
parkminster.org.uk/site.php?use=ourmonastery

However, the lives of the hermits there is anything but grand.
the-hermeneutic-of-continuity.blogspot.com/2006/08/tour-of-carthusian-cell.html

(The link is a rare look inside a cell at Parkminster, and is worth reading)

Grand structures are not for the monks. They are for the inspiration of us outsiders.

Inspiration for what, please? And of course you evade the real issues here. And show why monastic life is declining at the pace it is. “grand” and “monks” is a contradiction in terrns of course.