Herry's Mary Thread

[herry]

Hi Folks,

First of all, this is an apologetics forum where theological differences are dicsussed. At times we may disagree sharply, but let’s all be as friends, friends can disagree.

My question is this: Why Pray to Mary when you can pray to Jesus?

Q: Who came into the world to save sinners? Jesus or Mary?
A: Jesus

Q: Who is a sinners best friend? Jesus or Mary?
A: Jesus

Q: In the time of Jesus and Mary, who loved sinners more Jesus or Mary?
A: Jesus being God, loved them more.

Q: To whom did Jesus invite sinner’s to go for salvation, Himself or Mary?
A: Himself and only himself (John 14:6, Acts 4:12)

Q: How many examples are there in scripture of sinners, who thinking they could obtain grace more easily, went to Mary first before, or along with Jesus?
A: none

Q: Did the reprentant thief being crucified with Jesus do better to address himself to Jesus, or should he have gone first to Mary, who was at his feet?
A: The thief went directly to Jesus.

If then Jesus loves sinners infinitly more than Mary, never sent a sinner away (even a unclean woman who could have been punished for touching a clean person), and never sent them through an intermediary but welcomed them, when, after ascending to the throne of God to be our mediator, did Jesus lose any of His love, interest, or ability to give us all salvation, and all grace whatsoever we might ask? Does Jesus need help hearing all our prayers? Does Mary love us more than Christ?

 

[Tom2705]

Herry, from what protestant denomination are you? Just inquiring.

 

[Strider]

herry:

Hi Folks,

First of all, this is an apologetics forum where theological differences are dicsussed. At times we may disagree sharply, but let’s all be as friends, friends can disagree.

My question is this: Why Pray to Mary when you can pray to Jesus?

Q: Who came into the world to save sinners? Jesus or Mary?
A: Jesus

Q. Through whom did Jesus come into the world?
A. Mary

Q. Wht are Mary’s last recorded words in Scripture?
A. “Do whatever he tells you.” (Jn 2:5)

Not only did our Lord respond to Mary’s request without argument, he did so even though he didn’t want to.
The message is this passage is that he will refuse her nothing.

Q. Why NOT pray to Christ through Mary?
A. Uh, yeah.

 

[kmktexas]

Here you go. All the answers (and then some). CA tracts on Mary

 

[RyanL]

Herry,

First, let me say WELCOME!!

Second, please read the tracts linked above. They are really quite good.

Third, here’s a little slogan that you should keep in mind when thinking about the Catholic mentality about Mary:

No Mary, No Jesus.
Know Mary, Know Jesus.

Mary’s whole role in God’s plan is to bring us to Jesus. This makes complete sense: Have you ever met a Jewish woman who didn’t want you to know her son?!? That’s all she does, and, by golly, that’s more than enough for me!

Also, here’s a brief snippet from St. Luis DeMontfort’s True Devotion to Mary (praised by several Popes, and long held as a wonderful explaination of Marian devotion) - Chapter 1, Paragraph 1:

With the whole Church I acknowledge that Mary, being a mere creature fashioned by the hands of God is, compared to his infinite majesty, less than an atom, or rather is simply nothing, since he alone can say, “I am he who is”. Consequently, this great Lord, who is ever independent and self-sufficient, never had and does not now have any absolute need of the Blessed Virgin for the accomplishment of his will and the manifestation of his glory. To do all things he has only to will them.

If you would care to read more, the whole book is available free online here.

God Bless,
RyanL

 

[Madia]

If you are truly interested in why many Catholics practice Marian devotion I recommend the book “True Devotion to Mary” by St. Louis de Montfort:

ewtn.com/library/Montfort/TRUEDEVO.HTM

I recommend at least reading Part I to help you better understand why Mary is such an important part of the Catholic Church.

 

[RyanL]

Hey Madia…good recommendation!!

 

[Della]

herry:

Hi Folks,

First of all, this is an apologetics forum where theological differences are dicsussed. At times we may disagree sharply, but let’s all be as friends, friends can disagree.

My question is this: Why Pray to Mary when you can pray to Jesus?

Q: Who came into the world to save sinners? Jesus or Mary?
A: Jesus, born of Mary. The flesh of Christ is the flesh of Mary.

Q: Who is a sinners best friend? Jesus or Mary?
A: Jesus, born of Mary, who said “Let it be done to me according to your word” in order to bring Jesus into world.

Q: In the time of Jesus and Mary, who loved sinners more Jesus or Mary?
A: Jesus being God, loved them more, and Mary ministered to him so that he would be free to preach and teach and heal.

Q: To whom did Jesus invite sinner’s to go for salvation, Himself or Mary?
A: Himself and only himself (John 14:6, Acts 4:12). And Mary said, “Do whatever he tells you” and stood at the foot of the cross, silently offering up her only Son for the sins of the world.

Q: How many examples are there in scripture of sinners, who thinking they could obtain grace more easily, went to Mary first before, or along with Jesus?
A: none. How many examples in Scripture are there of Mary giving her all to her Son and whose every recorded word is filled with love for him and the desire to see his will done in all things?

Q: Did the reprentant thief being crucified with Jesus do better to address himself to Jesus, or should he have gone first to Mary, who was at his feet?
A: The thief went directly to Jesus. And Jesus said to John, “Behold your mother” and to Mary “Behold your son.”

If then Jesus loves sinners infinitly more than Mary, never sent a sinner away (even a unclean woman who could have been punished for touching a clean person), and never sent them through an intermediary but welcomed them, when, after ascending to the throne of God to be our mediator, did Jesus lose any of His love, interest, or ability to give us all salvation, and all grace whatsoever we might ask? Does Jesus need help hearing all our prayers? Does Mary love us more than Christ?

Jesus never lost anything by allowing Mary or you or me or anyone else to pray for one another. We Catholics don’t believe in the false idea that the dead in Christ are dead or sleeping. We believe they are alive and are with him in glory and that they, along with the holy angels sing his praise day and night, and make intercession for us on earth. There is no need to make a choice between Jesus and Mary. Jesus is our Savior and Mary is our spiritual mother.

 

[jimmy]

herry:

Hi Folks,

First of all, this is an apologetics forum where theological differences are dicsussed. At times we may disagree sharply, but let’s all be as friends, friends can disagree.

My question is this: Why Pray to Mary when you can pray to Jesus?

A prayer to Mary is a prayer to Christ. Think about, are our prayers to God only in words? Our prayers are in word, in thought and in our heart. It is a spiritual relationship with God. When we pray to a saint, like Mary, we are simply asking them to pray for us. When we pray to Mary though, it is also a prayer to Christ because our hearts are focused on Christ and because Christ is the whole reason why we pray. All prayer also goes to God through Christ.

Remember, it is not a choice we are making between praying to Mary and praying to Christ.

Q: Who came into the world to save sinners? Jesus or Mary?
A: Jesus

Jesus of course, He is the Christ.

Q: Who is a sinners best friend? Jesus or Mary?
A: Jesus

Jesus, He is our savior. That is why we pray the Kyrie at every mass. The second part is to Christ directly. We say, “Christ have mercy, Christ have mercy, Christ have mercy.”

Q: In the time of Jesus and Mary, who loved sinners more Jesus or Mary?
A: Jesus being God, loved them more.

As you said, Jesus loves them infinately. But this doesn’t mean that prayer to the saints is not good as well. If the saints pray for us it is efficacious. As James said(James5 I think), the prayer of a just man are efficacious.

Q: To whom did Jesus invite sinner’s to go for salvation, Himself or Mary?
A: Himself and only himself (John 14:6, Acts 4:12)

Every single one of our prayers is to Christ. We ask Christ to forgive us our sins. We ask Mary to pray for us.

Q: How many examples are there in scripture of sinners, who thinking they could obtain grace more easily, went to Mary first before, or along with Jesus?
A: none

John2, at the wedding of Cana. Mary approached Christ and Christ performed the miracle and turned the water into wine.

Q: Did the reprentant thief being crucified with Jesus do better to address himself to Jesus, or should he have gone first to Mary, who was at his feet?
A: The thief went directly to Jesus.

Yes he did. There was nothing wrong with what He did. There is also nothing wrong with asking the prayers of the saints as you would ask your brother to pray for you.

If then Jesus loves sinners infinitly more than Mary, never sent a sinner away (even a unclean woman who could have been punished for touching a clean person), and never sent them through an intermediary but welcomed them, when, after ascending to the throne of God to be our mediator, did Jesus lose any of His love, interest, or ability to give us all salvation, and all grace whatsoever we might ask? Does Jesus need help hearing all our prayers? Does Mary love us more than Christ?

Paul constantly exhorts people to pray for eachother. He says he is praying for them. this is the same thing as Mary praying for me, except Mary is completely cleansed and justified while she prays for us.

 

[Aaron_I]

If one were to reject the necessity of Mary, then that same person must of necessity reject the role of the priesthood. We saw this occur with the Protestant reformation. Question: why do we need priests to confess our sins to? After all, who but God can forgive sins? The answer to this is quite simple: God granted the power to forgive to priests. This truth is presented quite simply in the Bible, yet it took “Bible Christians” to out-think themselves and go against what is plainly written in scripture. The priests don’t have the power to perform the sacraments in and of themselves, but they in fact do have this power by Christ’s will. The same is true for Mary. How can she be co-Redemtrix? Because Christ willed it to be so.

 

[VociMike]

Then why ask anybody to pray for you when you could be using those moments to pray directly to God?

Do you agree that nobody should ever ask anybody else to pray for them, because the time taken to make the request could better be spent in prayer?

 

[Sherlock]

Madia:

If you are truly interested in why many Catholics practice Marian devotion I recommend the book “True Devotion to Mary” by St. Louis de Montfort:

ewtn.com/library/Montfort/TRUEDEVO.HTM

I recommend at least reading Part I to help you better understand why Mary is such an important part of the Catholic Church.

To be honest, I wouldn’t recommend this book for Protestants who are just beginning an understanding of Mary’s role, or who are, in effect, anti-Mary. The book is terrific for Catholics and for Protestants who have gone beyond the level of questioning that the OP is at. However, the language is more flowery than is currently the norm for twentieth- and twenty-first- century readers and writers. Hence, the profuse praise offered by St. Louis tends to confirm mistaken Protestants in their contention that Catholics “worship” Mary.

 

[hurst]

herry:

My question is this: Why Pray to Mary when you can pray to Jesus?

There is a danger of presumption and pride if you assert your own worthiness over that of another. Why place myself right next to Jesus when there are others more worthy than myself?

Luke 14:7 And he spoke a parable also to them that were invited, marking how they chose the first seats at the table, saying to them: 8 When thou art invited to a wedding, sit not down in the first place, lest perhaps one more honourable than thou be invited by him: 9 And he that invited thee and him, come and say to thee, Give this man place: and then thou begin with shame to take the lowest place. 10 But when thou art invited, go, sit down in the lowest place; that when he who invited thee, cometh, he may say to thee: Friend, go up higher. Then shalt thou have glory before them that sit at table with thee. 11 Because every one that exalteth himself, shall be humbled; and he that humbleth himself, shall be exalted.

Also, Jesus Himself taught us to pray to Our Father. Why then pray to Jesus or Mary?

Do not despise the stem that bears the rosebud. But hold the rose by means of the stem, and let the stem hold the rosebud directly.

The Son is in the Mother’s arms. Why try to push her out of the picture? Don’t you realize it was by her prayers and through her that we received the promised redeemer? Or do you think God was going to make this happen regardless, and that her role is irrelevant?

It is not about who loves us most. Praying to Mary is about how much we love Jesus. It is not about excluding, it is about including.

Mary loves Christ more than we do. She magnifies the Lord (Luke 1:46).

She loves us with His love. If the Apostle says “Now I live, yet not I, but Christ lives in me” (Gal 2:20), then how much more in Mary, who is Queen of the Apostles? Do you not see you set up a dichotomy of division that is injurious to the very Lord Jesus Christ whom your assert to be superior in love to all?

So how much would you love Jesus? Would you trust someone who loves Jesus more than you?

Personally, I trust Mary more than myself. I trust her love for me! And I trust her love for Jesus. I can do no better for Jesus than to give my all to Mary for love of Him , for I trust she will do more with it than I could or would by myself.

hurst

 

[Aaron_I]

Sherlock:

To be honest, I wouldn’t recommend this book for Protestants who are just beginning an understanding of Mary’s role, or who are, in effect, anti-Mary. The book is terrific for Catholics and for Protestants who have gone beyond the level of questioning that the OP is at. However, the language is more flowery than is currently the norm for twentieth- and twenty-first- century readers and writers. Hence, the profuse praise offered by St. Louis tends to confirm mistaken Protestants in their contention that Catholics “worship” Mary.

I have to agree. I did a consecration to Mary according to Montfort, and after a while I had to flip to the front of the book to make sure it had imprimatur and nihil obstat. I am okay with it now -and making the parallel to the priesthood that I mentioned in my previous post helped a lot-but DEFINITELY not for a Protestant.

 

[hurst]

jimmy:

…
Every single one of our prayers is to Christ.

This is simply not true. Who are you praying to in the Our Father?

jimmy:

We ask Christ to forgive us our sins. We ask Mary to pray for us.
…

We must ask others to forgive our sins also.
We ask graces from Mary also, not just prayers.

hurst

 

[David_Puthoff]

Herry,
This is a copy of one of my previous posts on a Protestant website questioning Mother of God or the “theotokos”. Believe it or not but our beliefs and respect for Mary are biblically founded. Just like everything else in the Catholic Church I promise it will make sense to you if you read and digest the content with an open mind. If you read Jack Chick, you got a long way to go.

You ask why the Roman Catholic Church holds Mary to such high regard. I have to ask why don’t you? I have never understood the concerns that some people have over the “Worship” of Mary. First of all we don’t worship Mary, we ask Mary for her intercession.
Lets be blunt, she is the “Mother of our Lord”. Luke 1:43
Who chose to be the first Christian? Mary. Luke 1:38
Who is mentioned in the New Testament more than any apostle except for Peter? Mary.
Who wept and stayed with the lord at the foot of his cross? Mary.
Who spent the most time with Christ during his life? Mary.
Even Luther expresses the belief that the Gospels praise Mary sufficiently by calling her (eight times) the Mother of Jesus.
Would you want me to talk about your mother with the same distaste as you have for the Mother of our Lord?

And he came to her and said, “**Hail, O favored one, the Lord is with you! **” Luke 1:28
and she exclaimed with a loud cry, "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb! Luke 1:42

**Hail Mary, Full of Grace.
The lord is with you.
Blessed are you amongst women.
And blessed fruit of your womb, Jesus.
Holy Mary, Mother of God.
Pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen **

The “Hail Mary” is a composite of the Angel Gabriel’s greeting (Luke 1:28) and Elizabeth’s greeting (Luke 1:42), both to Mary. It has been a popular prayer since the eleventh century. The name Jesus was added in the thirteenth century. Various versions of the Holy Mary emerged in the fourteenth century and were in general use soon there after. All of this occurred before the reformation.

On the third day there was a marriage at Cana in Galilee, and the mother of Jesus was there; Jesus also was invited to the marriage, with his disciples. When the wine failed, the mother of Jesus said to him, “They have no wine.” And Jesus said to her, **“O woman, what have you to do with me? My hour has not yet come.” **His mother said to the servants, “Do whatever he tells you.” Now six stone jars were standing there, for the Jewish rites of purification, each holding twenty or thirty gallons. 7 Jesus said to them, “Fill the jars with water.” And they filled them up to the brim. He said to them, “Now draw some out, and take it to the steward of the feast.” So they took it. When the steward of the feast tasted the water now become wine, and did not know where it came from (though the servants who had drawn the water knew), the steward of the feast called the bridegroom and said to him, “Every man serves the good wine first; and when men have drunk freely, then the poor wine; but you have kept the good wine until now.” John 2:1-10

We Catholics do not worship Mary, as for any prayer to Saints we ask for their intersession, like a prayer chain. Mary prompted Jesus at the wedding to help with the dilemma of no wine. **Without Mary’s intercession would there have been a miracle? Can she not do the same for us? **Will Jesus send people to hell because they adhere to the commandments and love his mother as he did?

Too many men are interested in looking holy instead of being holy - St. Gregory the Great”
Peace,
David
Mary lover - Christ worshiper

 

[David_Puthoff]

MARY
Lk 1:28, 30 - angel: “full of grace, found favor with God”
Lk 1:42- Elizabeth: “most blessed among women”
Lk 1;48- Mary: “all generations will call me blessed”
Mother of God
Lk 1:43- Elizabeth call her "mother of my Lord"mod
Mt 1:23 -virgin bear a son, Emmanuel = “God is with us”
Lk 1:35 - child born will be called holy, the Son of God
Gal 4:4 - God sent his Son, born of a woman

More Biblical Reference on Mary.

 

[hurst]

Sherlock:

… the profuse praise offered by St. Louis tends to confirm mistaken Protestants in their contention that Catholics “worship” Mary.

Which goes to show that the problem is not with Mary, but with the notion of “worship”.

The fact is, the Church has taught for centuries that we do in fact “worship” Mary and the Saints. But there has always been the understanding that “worship” is milder term than the Protestants of today make it out to be. The Church differentiates between “latria” and “dulia” forms of worship. It is important to retain this understanding if we wish to preserve our Faith properly.

To not render dulia to the saints is to doubt that God created a free will in us able to act as a secondary cause of good in the world.

Protestants in fact tend to deny this, for they generally believe that our free-will is bound to sin, and can not choose good at all without God’s grace. This is contrary to Church teaching (cf Ott).

And so, Protestants “worship” God by praise and singing and prayer. They have no sacrifice of the Mass, which is true latria worship of God. They only render dulia to God, which is what we render to the saints. Thus it follows that they see us giving to the saints what they give to God. Which is true.

But instead of denying or becoming defensive for what we give the saints, we should challenge them for what they are not rendering to God!

hurst

 

[David_Puthoff]

Herry,

I understand your confusion, Like you said, it’s not in the bible (Sola Scriptura) so you cannot understand the Love that Catholics have for The Mother of God. In my apologetic career I have met many who were concerned about the Catholic’s love for Mary, I cannot understand why this is an issue. You believe (Sola Fiede) and you are saved but we apply several traditions to it and you get all bent, are you in fear of your own soul or making a mockery of others? What is your motive? If you truly believe you are saved why do any works at all? So in your belief system, if it isn’t in scripture is doesn’t apply, I will first debunk your own beliefs using sola scriptura and then let you know why Mary is so important.

BIBLE ALONE OR BIBLE PLUS TRADITION?
1 Cor 11:2 - hold fast to traditions I handed on to you
2 Thess 2:15 - hold fast to traditions, whether oral or by letter
2 Thess 3:6 - shun those acting not according to tradition J
Jn 21:25- not everything Jesus said recorded in Scripture
Mk 13:31 - heaven & earth shall pass away, but my word won’t
Acts 20:35 - Paul records a saying of Jesus not found in gospels
2 Tim 1:13 - follow my sound words; guard the truth
2 Tim 2:2- what you heard entrust to faithful men
2 Pet 1:20 - no prophecy is a matter of private interpretation
2 Peter 3:15-16 Paul’s letters can be difficult to grasp & interpret
1 Pet 1:25- God’s eternal word=word preached to you
Rom 10:17 - faith comes from what is heard
1 Cor 15:1-2 - being saved if you hold fast to the word I preached
Mk 16:15- go to whole world, proclaim gospel to every creature
Mt 23:2-3 - chair of Moses; observe whatever they tell you

TRADITION CONDEMNED?
*Mt 15:3 - break commandment of God for your tradition
*Mk 7:9 - set aside God’s commandment. to uphold tradition
*Col 2:8 - seductive philosophy according to human tradition
1 Cor 11:2- commends them for following Apostolic tradition
2 Thess 2:15 -commands them to keep traditions
2 Thess 3:6 - shun those acting not according to tradition

Part 1 of 2

 

[David_Puthoff]

Continued.
FAITH ALONE OR FAITH PLUS WORKS?
Jam 2:24 - a man is justified by works and not by faith alone
Jam 2:26- faith without works is dead
Gal 5:6 - only thing that counts is faith working in love
1 Co 13:2 - faith without love is nothing
Jn 14:15 - if you love me, keep my commandments
Mt 19:16-17- if wish to enter into life, keep commandments
HAVE YOU BEEN SAVED?
Past Event (I have been saved)
Rom 8:24 - for in hope we were saved
Eph 2:5, 8 - by grace you have been saved through faith
2 Tim 1:9 - he saved us, called us, according to his grace
Tit 3:5 - he saved us thru bath of rebirth, renewal by Holy Spirit
Present Process (I am being saved)
Phil 2:12- work out your salvation with fear and trembling
1 Pet 1:9- as you attain the goal of your faith, salvation
Future Event (I will be saved)
Mt 10:22 - he who endures to the end will be saved
Mt 24:13 - he who perseveres to the end will be saved
Mk 8:35 - whoever loses his life for my sake will save it
Acts 15:11 - we shall be saved through the grace of Jesus
Rom 5:9-10 - since we are justified, we shall be saved
Rom 13:11-salvation is nearer now than first believed
1 Cor 3:15 - he will be saved, but only as through fire
1 Cor 5:5 - deliver man to Satan so his spirit may be saved
Heb 9:28- Jesus will appear second time, to bring salvation
GOOD WORKS
Mt 7:21 - not lord lord, but he who does the will of father
Mt 19:16- 17 - to have life, keep the commandments
Jn 14:21 - he who keeps my commandments loves me
Rom 2:2-8 - eternal life by perseverance in good works
Gal 5:4-6 - nothing counts but faith working through love
Eph 2:8-10 - we are created in Christ Jesus for good works
Phil 2:12-13 - work out salvation with fear and trembling
Jam 2:14-24 - a man is justified by works & not faith alone
JUDGED ACCORDING TO DEEDS
Rom 2:5-8- God will repay each man according to his works
2 Cor 5:10 - recompense accord to what did in body
2 Cor 11:15 - their end will correspond to their deeds
1 Pet 1:17 - God judges impartially according to one’s works
Rev 20:12-13 - dead judged according to their deeds
Col 3:24-25 - will receive due payment for whatever you do

 Peace,

David

Part 2 of 2