Hey Episcopals, are you joining the Anglican Church?

[GKC]

So if I see a Church in American that says, “Anglican Church” chances are that it is not a Church that is in communion with the Anglican Church in England?

I guess it depends… What time is it in Rome?

God bless

To your first question, most likely not. However, a new Anglican province, to challenge the status of the Episcopal Church as the official Anglican rep in the US, is trying to get itself formed, centered around the 4 dioceses who left the Episcopal Church in the past year or so. Elements of these churches might use the term “Anglican”. But, in general, the use of the term Anglican here usually means a church that belongs to the Continuing Anglican movement, those who started splitting from the Episcopal Church 30 years ago.

GKC

 

[Religio71]

No. Episcopals are the Anglicans in the USA that are in Communion with the Archbishop of Canterbury, and members of the Anglican Communion.

yes that is what I said.

 

[Religio71]

actually, i see what you meant. there are other Anglicans in America besides the ones in the Anglican Communion.

 

[BernadetteM]

As a former Episcopalian in a church which left the Episcopal church, we were in court with the diocese as they wanted the property. I believe a court would decide in some states differently on how the diocese controls the property versus the parish.

In our case the church was donated by a priest named Fr. Dodd with explicit directions as to how the property would be disposed of. The parish won their property because of whatever clause was in the legal paperwork. But many have lost the property.

Whether a parish wins or loses the building, it is not what is important in this matter. It is the faith.

In our case some stayed with the building as it was a beautiful church. Others became Catholic for what they felt was more important than material goods. I am sure that some who stayed did not want to be Catholic, but others voted to become Catholic as a parish and when that did not happen they decided to stay in that parish.

It is a shame that churches must go to court to retain a building, but if the diocese owns the land it is best to just leave. God will bless them in the end.

Yours in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary

Bernadette

 

[firstmode]

Any Episcopals on this board who are still going to an Episcopal church yet is against Homosexualy and see it as a sin?

 

[Holly3278]

Are there Anglican Churches in America? I was under the impression that the Anglican Church in America was the Episcopalian Church.

God bless

I was always under that impression as well.

 

[Contarini]

Many Episcopals have left the denomination (Which I always thought was Anglican??)

It is. We are the American expression of the Anglican Communion.

and are becoming Anglican in name due to Episcopals allowing ordination to practicing homosexuals. (YAY, Glad you Episcopals are leaving the name behind to be Anglican in sight of this sin.)

Why would you rejoice in this? Just so you can mock us for being hopelessly divided like other Protestants (Anglicans, until recently, were not subject to this mockery)?

Episcopalians are Anglicans. But those who have left the Episcopal Church still consider themselves Anglicans, which has led to the unfortunate perception that an “Anglican” is a non-Episcopalian. I prefer to call myself Anglican (though Catholic and Christian are obviously far more important descriptions to which I lay claim), because it describes my membership in the Anglican Communion, which is far more important to me than the national “Episcopal Church.”

Now, everyone who is Episcopal on this board, are you for homosexuality?

If you mean: do I think that homosexuality is natural, or that homosexual unions can be blessed by the Church as fully legitimate sexual unions in a manner analogous to marriage between a man and a woman–then certainly not.

If you are against homosexuality, why are you not claiming Anglican and leaving Episcopal churces?

Because I am not a Donatist heretic. The church has condoned many sins over the centuries. That doesn’t make us cease to be the Church. I don’t know why you even mention homosexuality as an issue, given that the Episcopal Church generally condones abortion, which is far, far worse. And both Anglicans and Catholics have at times condoned slavery, racism, unjust/unnecessary war, torture, persecution of heretics–all of which are at least as serious as (I would say much more serious than) homosexuality.

The only legitimate ground for leaving a Christian church is that it no longer professes Jesus to be Lord and thus has ceased to be Christian. Well, I might draw the line with the denial of the Trinity. But nothing less than that.

I should also add that the diocese in which I currently live is orthodox on the question of homosexuality, and is generally one of the more conservative dioceses in the Episcopal Church (with the departure of the really conservative dioceses, we may be on the right-wing fringe of the Episcopal Church now!), although we do ordain women, which many of you regard as an unorthodox practice.

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

So Episcopalians couldn’t really say, “I am no longer Episcopalian, but Anglican”? Almost like a Christian saying, “I’m no longer Christian, but Catholic”

More like saying, “I’m no longer Catholic, but Christian.” Which, of course, many people do say. And Catholics recognize that this is a polemical claim accusing your Church of apostasy–same here, although of course having departed from Anglicanism is not necessarily apostasy in and of itself (but the non-Episcopalian Anglicans believe that the Episcopal Church’s departure from historic Anglicanism is also a departure from historic Christianity).

Edwin

 

[GKC]

Thanks GKC,

So does the Archbishop have the power to excommunicate (for lack of a better word) those Jurisdictions who ordained women/homosexuals? Or is leaving the Anglican communion a one way street type of thing where jurisdictions can leave but cannot be kicked out of the communion? So if the Episcopalians want to ordain women or homosexuals and want to remain in the Anglican communion there is really nothing that can be done? Outside the individual parishioner leaving the Episcopalian church of course.

God bless

You are very welcome.

No, the Archbishop has no such power. He’s the bishop of Canterbury, the primate of the Church of England, and titular head of the official Anglican Communion. But no real power, outside his See. But the Communion as a whole could vote miscreant jurisdictions out (out of communion), for a sufficiently heinous and egregious apostasy. No one can readily identify what that might be, though. And the Archbishop could decline to invite a jurisdiction to his decennial Lambeth Conferences, which is like not making the A list, and a put-down, for Anglicans.

Given that almost half the 38 jurisidictions in the Communion lay hands on hairspray, and an increasing number put miters there, likewise, it’s not going to be that, that causes a rift, amongst the members, by this time.

GKC

 

[GKC]

No again. The Anglican Church in America is a church that is part of the international TRADITIONAL Anglican Communion, which broke away from the Episcopal Church some 30 years ago over the issues of women’s ordination, euthanasia, and the 1979 prayer book.

The Traditional Anglican Communion has requested the See of Peter to be accepted in Corporate Unity with Rome and the RC Church. (Hello, anyone awake in Rome?)

We are still waiting (18 mos and counting) for a reply.

The whole subject has been around for 10 years or so. Word is always coming, shortly.

It might be pointed out that, as piperspop says, there is a Continuing Anglican group in this country, whose official name is the Anglican Church in America, which is a part of an international group called the Traditional Anglican Communion. Sometimes, when speaking of Anglican churches in America, or traditional Anglicans in general, one is actually speaking of the wider world of Anglicans not in communion with Canterbury.

GKC

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

You are very welcome.

No, the Archbishop has no such power. He’s the bishop of Canterbury, the primate of the Church of England, and titular head of the official Anglican Communion. But no real power, outside his See. But the Communion as a whole could vote miscreant jurisdictions out (out of communion), for a sufficiently heinous and egregious apostasy. No one can readily identify what that might be, though. And the Archbishop could decline to invite a jurisdiction to his decennial Lambeth Conferences, which is like not making the A list, and a put-down, for Anglicans.

Given that almost half the 38 jurisidictions in the Communion lay hands on hairspray, and an increasing number put miters there, likewise, it’s not going to be that, that causes a rift, amongst the members, by this time.

GKC

Very informative. Thanks again GKC… That doesn’t by chance stand for G.K. Chesterton does it?

God bless

 

[GKC]

Very informative. Thanks again GKC… That doesn’t by chance stand for G.K. Chesterton does it?

God bless

I have been discovered. Yes. I’ve been a Chesterton fan, collector and reader for over 45 years. Likewise Belloc, Lunn, Lewis, Sayers, Williams, Dawson, Knox, Tolkien and such like. But Gilbert is my main man.

GKC

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

More like saying, “I’m no longer Catholic, but Christian.” Which, of course, many people do say. And Catholics recognize that this is a polemical claim accusing your Church of apostasy–same here, although of course having departed from Anglicanism is not necessarily apostasy in and of itself (but the non-Episcopalian Anglicans believe that the Episcopal Church’s departure from historic Anglicanism is also a departure from historic Christianity).

Edwin

So then hearing someone say that they are no longer Episcopalian but Anglican would cause you to :banghead: as much as it causes us to when we hear, “I am no longer Catholic, but Christian.”?

It is amazing all the things we share. We shall have awfully sore foreheads after awhile

God bless

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

I have been discovered. Yes. I’ve been a Chesterton fan, collector and reader for over 45 years. Likewise Belloc, Lunn, Lewis, Sayers, Williams, Dawson, Knox, Tolkien and such like. But Gilbert is my main man.

GKC

Well then, “my gift to you is words.”

cse.dmu.ac.uk/~mward/gkc/

Being a Chesterton fan for so long you probably already have this site in your favorite. But in case you do not

Thanks again and God bless

 

[GKC]

Well then, “my gift to you is words.”

cse.dmu.ac.uk/~mward/gkc/

Being a Chesterton fan for so long you probably already have this site in your favorite. But in case you do not

Thanks again and God bless

I did, but you were thoughtful to send it. Thank you.

I was involved, for about 22 years, with a used book dealer, who specialized in Chesterton and Belloc. For that long, I received a book a month, mainly from those authors, a couple from Knox and Lunn, which form the core of my collection today. In those long ago days, there was little of Chesterton in print.

Nowadays, it’s a feast. Ordered a volume of the Ignatius Press ILLUSTRATED LONDON NEWS columns yesterday, Only 2 more of those collections to go, and I’ll have them all.

And my gift to you, if you are a Chestertonian, is to recommend William Oddie’s recent book, CHESTERTON AND THE ROMANCE OF ORTHODOXY. It is, for several reasons, the best book on the development of Chesterton’s thought, up to 1908, when he had reached a decision about Rome, that I have read, in all those 45 years.

Thank you, again.

GKC

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

And my gift to you, if you are a Chestertonian, is to recommend William Oddie’s recent book, CHESTERTON AND THE ROMANCE OF ORTHODOXY. It is, for several reasons, the best book on the development of Chesterton’s thought, up to 1908, when he had reached a decision about Rome, that I have read, in all those 45 years.

Saved unto my Amazon wish list

Thank you and God bless

 

[Contarini]

So then hearing someone say that they are no longer Episcopalian but Anglican would cause you to :banghead: as much as it causes us to when we hear, “I am no longer Catholic, but Christian.”?

Not as much, for two reasons:

1. As I said, being Anglican is hardly as important as being Christian, so the implied accusation is nowhere near as extreme!
2. Unquestionably the Episcopal Church *has *departed from some traditional Anglican (and indeed traditional Christian) teaching. You obviously don’t agree that this is the case for your Communion. So I have a lot more sympathy for the “non-Episcopal Anglicans” than you do for ex-Catholics.

The cases are somewhat similar, but I didn’t mean to claim that they are identical. One similarity, I think, is the highly subjective and individualistic sense of religious identity that is in operation in both cases (I have discovered what it really means to be a Christian or an Anglican and I’m going to join a group that agrees with my insights). That of course isn’t always the case–often whole dioceses or even parishes split from the Episcopal Church. But the more I hear conservative Anglicans talk (particularly the new wave of the past ten years, who tend to be more low-church than the old “Continuers”), the more typically American Protestant they sound. (One conservative Anglican recently joined my parish–he had belonged to “Fall’s Church,” which is a flagship evangelical parish that left the Episcopal Church a few years ago. About the time this happened, this particular gentleman and his wife left and moved back to the small town in Indiana where they had grown up, where I also live. They had some doubts as to whether they wanted to join the local Episcopal parish, I believe, but since we are quite conservative here they decided to do so. But he makes up for remaining Episcopalian by subjecting us all to continual arguments defending those who have split, so I hear the conservative, evangelical, ex-Episcopalian case quite frequently from a fellow Episcopalian! And he seems to put almost no value on visible unity, arguing that the patristic exhortations simply can’t be applied in our divided modern context.)

Edwin

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

Not as much, for two reasons:

1. As I said, being Anglican is hardly as important as being Christian, so the implied accusation is nowhere near as extreme!
2. Unquestionably the Episcopal Church *has *departed from some traditional Anglican (and indeed traditional Christian) teaching. You obviously don’t agree that this is the case for your Communion. So I have a lot more sympathy for the “non-Episcopal Anglicans” than you do for ex-Catholics.

The cases are somewhat similar, but I didn’t mean to claim that they are identical. One similarity, I think, is the highly subjective and individualistic sense of religious identity that is in operation in both cases (I have discovered what it really means to be a Christian or an Anglican and I’m going to join a group that agrees with my insights). That of course isn’t always the case–often whole dioceses or even parishes split from the Episcopal Church. But the more I hear conservative Anglicans talk (particularly the new wave of the past ten years, who tend to be more low-church than the old “Continuers”), the more typically American Protestant they sound. (One conservative Anglican recently joined my parish–he had belonged to “Fall’s Church,” which is a flagship evangelical parish that left the Episcopal Church a few years ago. About the time this happened, this particular gentleman and his wife left and moved back to the small town in Indiana where they had grown up, where I also live. They had some doubts as to whether they wanted to join the local Episcopal parish, I believe, but since we are quite conservative here they decided to do so. But he makes up for remaining Episcopalian by subjecting us all to continual arguments defending those who have split, so I hear the conservative, evangelical, ex-Episcopalian case quite frequently from a fellow Episcopalian! And he seems to put almost no value on visible unity, arguing that the patristic exhortations simply can’t be applied in our divided modern context.)

Edwin

Edwin,

Thank you for the clarification. Then your head only hurts for a short time and not all the time

Edwin, if you don’t mind me asking. I believe you had said (this must have been a couple of years ago now) that you were discerning entering the Church. May I ask how that is going, or am I thinking of someone else?

God bless you either way.

 

[TAB39]

So Episcopalians couldn’t really say, “I am no longer Episcopalian, but Anglican”? Almost like a Christian saying, “I’m no longer Christian, but Catholic”

How does the Anglican Communion play out? Can the Episcopalians (American Anglicans) decide they want women priest, or homosexual priests with out the consent of the Anglican Church in England?

God bless

I think you know the answers to all of your ridiculous questions. If this is how Catholics act, then I don’t want any further part of it. This is plainly stupid and it’s wrong. Episcopalians are one province of the now 40 in the Anglican communion. Most of the others do not even resemble the Episcopal church which is a very liberalized church. If we don’t agree with them that’s fine, but let’s not resport to acting plum stupid because of it.

 

[TAB39]

So then hearing someone say that they are no longer Episcopalian but Anglican would cause you to :banghead: as much as it causes us to when we hear, “I am no longer Catholic, but Christian.”?

It is amazing all the things we share. We shall have awfully sore foreheads after awhile

God bless

I’d be careful laughing too hard. Many many Christians do not consider us to be Christian but instead a cult.