Hey Im a Muslim contemplating Christianity but need a few things cleared up. Thanks.

[Byzantine_Wolf]

Actually friend wolf…all these “translations” of the Holy Qur’an are “commentaries”…not “translations”…only the Arabic Qur’an is the “authentic” version…the various ‘translations’ are flawed and inaccurate in that they do not convey the depth of the Arabic language…the various “translations” you cite are “interpretations”…“commentary”…not true Qur’an.

Uh…as jakasaki pointed out, even Muslim sites call them translations (here’s another example, and yet another). In fact, unless the definitions for “translation” and “commentary” have dramatically changed in the English language, they’re called translations. There are even out there “Yusuf Ali Only” Muslims who think if you don’t have a Yusuf Ali translation of the Quran, you don’t have a true English translation of the Quran.

And as jakasaki pointed out, if that definition of “translation” is thrown out…then translations are but a myth propagated by some grammar industrial complex.

 

[The_Reginator]

Hello everyone my names Matt im a 23 year old Muslim. I have been a Muslim my whole life (though not always truly practicing my faith) and have very little knowledge about Christianity and other Faiths. I would truly like to learn more about Catholicism especially.

Questions:

1. How come there are many versions of the bible? Who altered them? Did they speak to God too? Im confused because there are so many versions how do I know which one is correct? Thanks.
2. I have been told by Imams and Scholars at meetings and conferences etc that not a Single Word has been altered in our Holy Quran throughout 1400 years. Is this fact? I have been on Christian sites where they say this is not true though some of these sites seem a little suspect. I have been lurking here for a while and can tell that for the most part this is one of the most honest forums on the net!

The word of God is a man not a book.


Without a direct line of correct oral teachings scripture will destroy you. Scripture supports truth only when correctly understood. You can only correctly understand scripture if you already know the truth.

Why is correct oral tradition supperior to correct written scripture?
As a written mesage is passed from generation to generation the culture and language slowly changes yet the writen message stays the same all the while the interpretation of the message changes with the changing culture and language. Oral tradition does not have this problem. The individual that is part of the chain of oral transmission is capable of delivering the self same message as understood in the beginning regardless of changes to the language or culture because both the student and the teacher live in the same instant of culture and speak the same dialect and therefor can comunicate an idea with a precision that is impossible within a written transmission.

Matt,
God bless you on the journey He has called you to take.
In order to make an important point, I am going to ignore your questions because, as agent_grey has pointed out, “the Word of God is a Man, not a book.”
God created the universe, including time and all the laws of physics.
After the Fall, where we chose ourselves instead of God, he began sending His profits to His chosen people – the Jews.
In the fullness of time God Himself came to earth and was born of a woman. He taught, He healed, and finally He suffered and died for us.
He rose from the dead, and before ascending into heaven he established His Church.
It is His Church that contains all Tradition and assembled the bible. God did not leave a book. He left His living body, the Church, with Christ as its head.

It’s great that you are investigating the scriptures, but please don’t limit yourself to questions about versions of the bible. The Church has even more to offer you!

 

[Grace_Seeker]

Matt,

You’ve gotten some pretty good answers here already. About the only thing I disagree with are those that suggest you stay away from the more modern English translations of the Bible. While some translations are better than others, most of them are adequate or better. None (other than the specifically mentioned New World Translation) are really bad, though the paraphrases like the Living Bible or Good News aren’t my preference. The most important thing is that you get a Bible you are going to read. The worst translation opened and read is better than the best translation closed and gathering dust on a shelf. Find one you are comfortable with. If you’ve never read the Bible before, I would recommend one with some helps in it: maps, dictionary, study notes.

You said that you are particularly interested in the Catholic church. I’ll not try to dissuade you from that. I am a United Methodist pastor, but I bear no animosity toward any Christian group. Even Christians of different denominations hold more things in common with one another than we have differences between us. But, should you find yourself wanting other information beyond what you can get on a Catholic Forum, I’ll be glad to help. I might have a unique perspective because I have a daughter from Turkey who is Muslim.

Peace,
Gene Ramsey

 

[Sam_777]

1. I have been told by Imams and Scholars at meetings and conferences etc that not a Single Word has been altered in our Holy Quran throughout 1400 years.

Welcome Matt to CAF,

Please till those Imams:

1. What about the versions of Quran prior to Othman era (those burnt by him) were they also alter free!
   (E)
2. What about the goat which ate some Quranic verses under Aisha’s bed!
   (A)
3. Where are the verses of Quran which describe that there was a stoning verse in Quran and now no more, and the length of some Surras are different now than the days of Muhammed!
   (E1) (E2).

 

[Being_Brave]

Matt, welcome to the forums! As to the many bible translations, one must be careful when selecting a bible - especialy the newer versions. The older the translation, the better (in a general sense). The editors of some modern translations have an agenda, and have used slightly different variations in translation to make the bible support their recent ideas. An example is the NIV (New International Version), an evangelical protestant version which was produced in the 1970s. It specifically changes some of the translations to make scripture coincide with beliefs which were not held before about 1890. I cannot trust such an edition to be completely accurate, so I avoid them.

I just thought it would be interesting to mention a few of the “versions” of the bible that were actually translation issues that were embraced at one time or another. I wouldn’t recommend using them as references by any means, but people who argue against Christianity tend to find the strangest scripture to “debunk” the faith, and these are generally where they get their misinformation.

-Flat Earth Bible - describes the earth as a snow-globe type place (I think this is the most popular one used by athiests, if you actually read it it’s hilarious!!)

-Bugs Bible - warns against being afraid of buggies in the night

-Discharge Bible - says “I discharge” rather than “I charge”

-Ears to Ear Bible - Matt 13:43 reads, “Who hath ears to ear, let him hear”

-Placemakers Bible - Matt 5:9 reads “Blessed are the placemakers”

-Printers’ Bible - Psalm 119:161 says, “printers have persecuted me without a cause”, instead of “princes”

-Murderers Bible - Jude 16 reads “These are murderers, complainers…”, instead of “murmurers”

-Rebekah’s Camels Bible - Genesis 24:61 as “Rebekah arose, and her camels”, instead of “her damsels”

-Standing Fishes Bible - Ezekiel 47:10 has “And it shall come to pass that the fishes shall stand on it” instead of “fishers”

-Treacle Bible - Uses “treacle” for “balm”, as in Jeremiah 8:22, “Is there no treacle in Gilead?”

-Unrighteous Bible - says “the unrighteous shall inherit the kingdom of god” and Romans 6:13 read “Neither yield ye your members as instruments of righteousness unto sin”, instead of “unrighteousness”

-Vinegar Bible -Luke 20 reads “Parable of the Vinegar” instead of “Vineyard”

-Wicked Bible/Adulterous Bible - the word “not” was omitted from the seventh commandment. (Ex. 20:14)

-Wife-hater Bible - Luke 14:26 says “If any man come to me, and hates not his father… and his own wife also”, instead of “his own life”.

When I went into the religios education office at my Church for the first time, they actually gave me a reliable copy of the Bible so if you’re interested it might be worth it to stop by a CC and see what resources they can offer. I was up-front with the fact that I was just doing research at the time and they were monumentally helpful just the same. Good luck

 

[Reuben_J]

-Flat Earth Bible - describes the earth as a snow-globe type place (I think this is the most popular one used by athiests, if you actually read it it’s hilarious!!)

-Bugs Bible - warns against being afraid of buggies in the night

-Discharge Bible - says “I discharge” rather than “I charge”

-Ears to Ear Bible - Matt 13:43 reads, “Who hath ears to ear, let him hear”

-Placemakers Bible - Matt 5:9 reads “Blessed are the placemakers”

-Printers’ Bible - Psalm 119:161 says, “printers have persecuted me without a cause”, instead of “princes”

-Murderers Bible - Jude 16 reads “These are murderers, complainers…”, instead of “murmurers”

-Rebekah’s Camels Bible - Genesis 24:61 as “Rebekah arose, and her camels”, instead of “her damsels”

-Standing Fishes Bible - Ezekiel 47:10 has “And it shall come to pass that the fishes shall stand on it” instead of “fishers”

-Treacle Bible - Uses “treacle” for “balm”, as in Jeremiah 8:22, “Is there no treacle in Gilead?”

-Unrighteous Bible - says “the unrighteous shall inherit the kingdom of god” and Romans 6:13 read “Neither yield ye your members as instruments of righteousness unto sin”, instead of “unrighteousness”

-Vinegar Bible -Luke 20 reads “Parable of the Vinegar” instead of “Vineyard”

-Wicked Bible/Adulterous Bible - the word “not” was omitted from the seventh commandment. (Ex. 20:14)

-Wife-hater Bible - Luke 14:26 says “If any man come to me, and hates not his father… and his own wife also”, instead of “his own life”.



Seriously, people should take more care about typos and proof reading before they put them into the printers!

 

[schaick]

That’s ok with me…but those books I have read BY Muslims disagree with YOU…the “translations” are not true Qur’an…they are no more than “commentary” or “interpretations” as the true Qur’an is only in Arabic…as defined by Muslims…not Catholics or Orthodox.

The Pickthall “translation” is titled “The Meaning of the Glorious Quran”…“interpretation”…or “commentary” on the Quran…not true Holy Qur’an as the sacred nature of the Qur’an does not allow for translation…as the revelation was given in Arabic…only Arabic presents the true Qur’an…“translations” do not.

I have also heard this. I guess allah only speaks arabic?!?

In Christianity it is the message that is so very important, not the words used as in Islam.

The Christian message is the same in any language. I have heard of a Bible group that helped a native people put their oral only language into writing and then translated a Bible for them into their language.

This is a great on-line site:
biblegateway.com/

Matt10281986 what is your native language? This site has the message in many languages. Here is arabic:
biblegateway.com/passage/?search=john%201&version=ALAB

 

[Publisher]

I have also heard this. I guess allah only speaks arabic?!?

In Christianity it is the message that is so very important, not the words used as in Islam.

The Christian message is the same in any language. I have heard of a Bible group that helped a native people put their oral only language into writing and then translated a Bible for them into their language.

This is a great on-line site:
biblegateway.com/

Matt10281986 what is your native language? This site has the message in many languages. Here is arabic:
biblegateway.com/passage/?search=john%201&version=ALAB

So often in the discussions between Christians and Muslim…in order to make a point…Chrisitians seek to define Muslim belief and practice in Christian terms. Muslims do not accept any “translation/interpretation/commentary” of the Holy Qur’an in any other language but Arabic…the meanings of phrases and words in Arabic are multi-layerd and the full meaning is not conveyed in other languages…only Arabic.

The Bible is not in the same catagory as the Qur’an…it was compiled over centuries by perhaps as many as 40 different authors in at least three languages…Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek. The translations of the Bible do not coorespond with Qur’an “translations”…no set “Christian” belief prohibits the Bible from being “authentic” in other languages…this is not so for the Qur’an…to seek to impose “Christian” thought in regard to translations of the Bible and the Qur’an gives a skewed so called “Christian” understanding to scripture…but does not take into account the Muslim understanding of scripture…the Holy Qur’an is only the “Holy Qur’an” in Arabic…the Holy Bible is the Holy Bible in any language it’s translated into.

That Muslims writing for the English population calls the Qur’an “translations” is for the English reader…not the Muslim…Arabic is the language of the Qur’an…any other “translation/commentary/interpretation” is NOT HOLY QUR’AN despite what “Christians” claim…if we are to have any meaningful dialog with Muslims we must not impose “Christian” understanding upon Muslim belief and practice just to make ourselves “right”.

 

[crazzeto]

Publisher,

Your argument is fine and good if we’re willing to accept all religions are equal. But they’re not are they? If they were, then why not just run off and become a muslim? For that matter why would anyone care about any form of doctrine at all, as any belief will get you to heaven (indeed many today accept that unbelief will equallly get you to heaven).

As Christians we know God, further I submit that we have the fullest, truest revelation of God. As we know God as we do, then we are in the right to make certain assertions, for instance the assertion about God’s attitude towards keeping his Sacred Texts in a given language.

We know for instance, that by providence of God the Septuigent was created due specifically to the Greeks mandating a translation of the Torah. This is significant as God did speak through these translators, they created a version which Christ him self used to base many (most) of his teachings upon.

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

So often in the discussions between Christians and Muslim…in order to make a point…Chrisitians seek to define Muslim belief and practice in Christian terms. Muslims do not accept any “translation/interpretation/commentary” of the Holy Qur’an in any other language but Arabic…the meanings of phrases and words in Arabic are multi-layerd and the full meaning is not conveyed in other languages…only Arabic.

That depends on what Muslim you talk to and when you’re talking to them and what you’re talking about.

From my experiencing initiating dialogue with Muslims, they often switch sides on this issue. They’ll quote translations when they’re trying to appeal to people, and say this is the word of God, or they’ll accept an English translation as valid. However, if they’re trying to glorify Arabic, or they’re trying to get around what an English translation (or many translations, all from legitimate Muslim scholars) say, then they’ll suddenly jump to the “Oh, only Arabic counts” excuse.

Try to enter into dialogue with Islam in comparative religion, and you’ll see inconsistencies abound.

 

[Sam_777]

They’ll quote translations when they’re trying to appeal to people, and say this is the word of God, or they’ll accept an English translation as valid.

As far as the translations which I have seen at the University of Southern California Islamic site, I have found that the translators have masked many harsh and low level Arabic words with a softer English ones.

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

As far as the translations which I have seen at the University of Southern California Islamic site, I have found that the translators have masked many harsh and low level Arabic words with a softer English ones.

I’ve noticed that sometimes too, as well as in some other translations. Although in some passages, such as S. 9:29:

…and feel themselves subdued. [Yusuf Ali]

…being brought low. [M. Pickthal]

…and they are in a state of subjection. [M. Shakir]

It’s not exactly a happy verse no matter who translates it

 

[Limette]

Hi Matt,

I am a former Muslim who converted to Christianity.
As a Muslim, I was very observant and even pursued masters’ and doctoral studies in Islamic theology, law, history, and Quran exegesis.

One web site that has helped me a lot when I was wondering about the origin of the Bible, and the Islamic claims that the Bible was “falsified” or “corrupted”, etc is
answering-islam.org/Bible/index.html

It contains scholarly articles on important questions and assumptions Muslims have about Christianity.

God bless you and continue to guide and protect you.

 

[Limette]

1. I have been told by Imams and Scholars at meetings and conferences etc that not a Single Word has been altered in our Holy Quran throughout 1400 years. Is this fact? I have been on Christian sites where they say this is not true though some of these sites seem a little suspect. I have been lurking here for a while and can tell that for the most part this is one of the most honest forums on the net!

Dear Matt,
What I have discovered during my studies is that this is a false belief: the Quran has not been preserved and there existed ( and still does) many versions of the Quran. The other versions were ordered to be destroyed by Caliph Uthman.
In terms of preservation, when you study the way the Quran was “revealed” there was a lot of abrogation.
You can find a number of articles that discuss the issue of the Quran here:
answering-islam.org/Quran/index.html

May the Lord be with you.

 

[MartinJordan]

No offense Limette but personally I think learning more about Catholicism through the RCIA, would be more useful, rewarding and so forth, than referring to “non Catholic” sites about another religion/faith (Islam).

We should not (not that Im saying you are promoting) a pick and choose approach to help a Muslim, in my humble opinion it must be a step by step understanding of the Catholic faith first and foremost.

MJ

PS. My apologies if above sounded harsh.

 

[Orleans_Attny]

Hello everyone my names Matt im a 23 year old Muslim. I have been a Muslim my whole life (though not always truly practicing my faith) and have very little knowledge about Christianity and other Faiths. I would truly like to learn more about Catholicism especially.

Questions:

1. How come there are many versions of the bible? Who altered them? Did they speak to God too? Im confused because there are so many versions how do I know which one is correct? Thanks.
2. I have been told by Imams and Scholars at meetings and conferences etc that not a Single Word has been altered in our Holy Quran throughout 1400 years. Is this fact? I have been on Christian sites where they say this is not true though some of these sites seem a little suspect. I have been lurking here for a while and can tell that for the most part this is one of the most honest forums on the net!

One major difference that will underlie (or should) your considerations of Christianity is that proper Christianity (Catholicism) is an APOSTOLIC practice of the faith - not a book-driven practice of the faith. Divine Revelation through doctrine is assisted by, but not dependent upon, the bible.

Don’t take that to mean that I consider the bible unimportant. Quite the contrary! But when I search for the truth I turn to apostolic teaching (the Church) as the primary keeper of divine truth. The pillar and foundation of truth is the Church - first and foremost. The bible is merely a very valuable tool - but it is not the keys to the Kingdom’s gate.

Some Christians, who practice an inadequate form of the faith, consider the bible the foundation of the truth, which - of course - isn’t true.

Pax,
OA

 

[Orleans_Attny]

No offense Limette but personally I think learning more about Catholicism through the RCIA, would be more useful, rewarding and so forth, than referring to “non Catholic” sites about another religion/faith (Islam).

We should not (not that Im saying you are promoting) a pick and choose approach to help a Muslim, in my humble opinion it must be a step by step understanding of the Catholic faith first and foremost.

MJ

PS. My apologies if above sounded harsh.

Perhaps. Perhaps not.

Every project deserves the right tool. And RCIA might not be the right starting tool for this project.

Indeed, I’d like to say that I have been a member of a parish will a well run, intellectually rigorous RCIA program. But I can’t say that.

Most RCIA programs that I’ve experienced are organized to cater to those seeking conversion for the purpose of marriage or fallen Catholics seeking to remember what they forgot from 8th grade CCD.

In my experience, RCIA is hardly the place for a challenging discussion about comparative theology and the primacy Catholicism. Heck - most RCIA courses aren’t even taught by a priest!

Pax,
OA

 

[Limette]

No offense Limette but personally I think learning more about Catholicism through the RCIA, would be more useful, rewarding and so forth, than referring to “non Catholic” sites about another religion/faith (Islam).

We should not (not that Im saying you are promoting) a pick and choose approach to help a Muslim, in my humble opinion it must be a step by step understanding of the Catholic faith first and foremost.

MJ

PS. My apologies if above sounded harsh.

It is ok, you didn’t sound harsh.
Matt is currenyl struggling with the exact same questions I struggled with two years ago and that is why I referred him to articles that explain why the belief of tahreef (Bible corruption) is historically false.
I went through a whole year of RCIA in 1997, but none of these questions were answered because no one understood the actual Muslim mindset and therefore the very things that constituted a blockage and obstacle. The Quran is the pillar of Islam, in that it is believed to the Word of God made book. The same centrality that Jesus has in Christianity, the Quran has in Islam. When you are learning about Catholicism or Christ in general and still hold the Quran to the Eternal Word of God (incarnate in a book), the blockage remains.

In all cases, I was trying to help Matt whose questions are identical to those I had before. That web site which I believe the Holy Spirit guided me to find, gave me intellectual certainty (even though the call of Christ had been in my heart).

As you can see, I am currently enrolled in RCIA for the 3rd time in my life (once I wasn’t baptized because the priest was afraid to do so because I came from a Muslim background), so I am definitely not anti-Catholic.

Maybe there should be a Catholic online ministry for Muslims. In the meantime, since there is not, this non-denomination Christian one has served to do God’s work and bring many Muslims to Christ.
I am part of a Network for Muslims ( interdenominational Christian) here is Canada, that has done tremendous work in reaching out to our Muslim brothers and sisters with love and many through the Holy Spirit have accepted Christ.

I apologize for offending or going against any policy. I promise not to participate in this discussion anymore.

God bless you.

 

[crazzeto]

As you can see, I am currently enrolled in RCIA for the 3rd time in my life (once I wasn’t baptized because the priest was afraid to do so because I came from a Muslim background), so I am definitely not anti-Catholic.

Maybe there should be a Catholic online ministry for Muslims. In the meantime, since there is not, this non-denomination Christian one has served to do God’s work and bring many Muslims to Christ.
I am part of a Network for Muslims ( interdenominational Christian) here is Canada, that has done tremendous work in reaching out to our Muslim brothers and sisters with love and many through the Holy Spirit have accepted Christ.

I apologize for offending or going against any policy. I promise not to participate in this discussion anymore.

God bless you.

I’m so sorry to read that a Priest failed to do his dutey for such a reason! How terrible! I hope you have found a better parish, with a better priest! I also think that your really onto something with your comments! God bless!

 

[meedo]

So often in the discussions between Christians and Muslim…in order to make a point…Chrisitians seek to define Muslim belief and practice in Christian terms. Muslims do not accept any “translation/interpretation/commentary” of the Holy Qur’an in any other language but Arabic…the meanings of phrases and words in Arabic are multi-layerd and the full meaning is not conveyed in other languages…only Arabic.

The Bible is not in the same catagory as the Qur’an…it was compiled over centuries by perhaps as many as 40 different authors in at least three languages…Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek. The translations of the Bible do not coorespond with Qur’an “translations”…no set “Christian” belief prohibits the Bible from being “authentic” in other languages…this is not so for the Qur’an…to seek to impose “Christian” thought in regard to translations of the Bible and the Qur’an gives a skewed so called “Christian” understanding to scripture…but does not take into account the Muslim understanding of scripture…the Holy Qur’an is only the “Holy Qur’an” in Arabic…the Holy Bible is the Holy Bible in any language it’s translated into.

That Muslims writing for the English population calls the Qur’an “translations” is for the English reader…not the Muslim…Arabic is the language of the Qur’an…any other “translation/commentary/interpretation” is NOT HOLY QUR’AN despite what “Christians” claim…if we are to have any meaningful dialog with Muslims we must not impose “Christian” understanding upon Muslim belief and practice just to make ourselves “right”.

This guy knows what he is talking about. 100% correct. the Holy Quran is only in arabic… anything else is a translation of the meaning of the Quran. Is not Holy nor is considered the word of God as he spoke it.