Hey, is there anybody here at CAF, who believes that Jesus Christ had biological brothers and can you prove it?

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Yeah and?? Does this mean that it would be a shameful act for Joseph to have sex with his wife?
Shlom lokh!

Not sure if this has been mentioned yet, but there was someone in the Old Testament (in Exodus, perhaps) that just by touching the Ark of the Covenant, Word of God in stone form, died. He didn’t even mean to touch it, it actually fell on him and he died! How much more holy would Mary be, the one who bore the Word of God incarnate?

Please, SIA, no sarcasm or rudeness. Seriously ponder this great mystery.

Alloho minokhoun,
Andrew
 
Yeah and?? Does this mean that it would be a shameful act for Joseph to have sex with his wife?
Do you mean to say that it would be shameful for Joseph and Mary to abstain from having normal marital relations? Why do you find the virtue of chastity repulsive, I wonder? 🤷

Mary is the Woman of Promise of the New Covenant, having given birth to our Lord and Saviour. And so she was not constrained by Jewish custom to contract a celibate marriage, which by the way many Jewish couples did in ancient time. We should respect their decisions, not criticize them because of the premium we personally place on human sexuality. :nope:

By the way, you still have to prove that Scripture reveals Jesus actually had biological siblings. I’ve already shown how wrong Protestants are in their wild interpretations of Matthew 1, 25 and Psalm 69. Would you care to discuss Matthew 18 and other Gospel passages? I expect, in spite of my answers, you’ll cling to your wishful thinking. :hypno:

p.s.Kindly be more reverent in your use of language when speaking of the Blessed Virgin Mary and her husband St. Joseph. Remember how Jesus lovingly and humbly honoured his parents.

PAX
Good Fella :cool:
 
Shlom lokh!

Not sure if this has been mentioned yet, but there was someone in the Old Testament (in Exodus, perhaps) that just by touching the Ark of the Covenant, Word of God in stone form, died. He didn’t even mean to touch it, it actually fell on him and he died! How much more holy would Mary be, the one who bore the Word of God incarnate?

Please, SIA, no sarcasm or rudeness. Seriously ponder this great mystery.

Alloho minokhoun,
Andrew
I actually believe Mary signified Israel and Jesus the Ark. I disagree with the notion that Mary plays a co-role in crushing the serpents head. In my view it is only the seed of the woman who crushes the serpents head.

I believe the proper way to view the protoevangelium of Gen. 3:15 is to understand that it was necessary for Jesus to be born from a “woman” (see Galatians 4:4) in order to meet sin at the fountain head where it entered the world (see also 1 Tim. 2:11-15).

Therefore, Mary was where Jesus inherits His flesh identity as a Jew. Consider:

For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit (Ephesian 2:14-17).

It was necessary for Jesus to inherit His flesh identity as a Jew under the law to abolish the law in His flesh when He was put to death.

His flesh is Israel of the flesh, while His spirit is Israel of the promise.

In other words, it is not the natural children who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring (Romans 9:8).

We see Paul discussing this distinction here. Jesus came to make the two one, by abolishing in His flesh the thing that separated them. This is why it is necessary for His to have been born from a woman, who was a Jew, and under the law.

I’ve heard many say that while Jesus was born under the law (Gal. 4:4), Mary was not. That idea is just unfathomable.

The only one who ever walked this earth in the flesh who never sinned was Jesus. The idea that Mary was not born a sinner is problematic for so many reasons. Anyway, I’ve learned enough from posting here on CAF that we’re not going to agree on this topic. However, my view is fairly well settled – it’s hard to imagine it could change? This idea is one of my biggest objections to Marian dogma (probably the biggest). I also think Mary did bear other children – but that’s less important to this objection because the idea of a Mary not born under the law while Jesus was, or the idea that she was born and lived devoid of any sin when it was necessary for Mary to represent Israel in every way, really offends the structure of scripture in a way that pales in comparison to the sibling issue.

Blessings
 
Do you mean to say that it would be shameful for Joseph and Mary to abstain from having normal marital relations? Why do you find the virtue of chastity repulsive, I wonder? 🤷

Mary is the Woman of Promise of the New Covenant, having given birth to our Lord and Saviour. And so she was not constrained by Jewish custom to contract a celibate marriage, which by the way many Jewish couples did in ancient time. We should respect their decisions, not criticize them because of the premium we personally place on human sexuality. :nope:

By the way, you still have to prove that Scripture reveals Jesus actually had biological siblings. I’ve already shown how wrong Protestants are in their wild interpretations of Matthew 1, 25 and Psalm 69. Would you care to discuss Matthew 18 and other Gospel passages? I expect, in spite of my answers, you’ll cling to your wishful thinking. :hypno:

p.s.Kindly be more reverent in your use of language when speaking of the Blessed Virgin Mary and her husband St. Joseph. Remember how Jesus lovingly and humbly honoured his parents.

PAX
Good Fella :cool:
Your ascertions are wild and unfounded. This is the very thing that happens when a person or persons goes off on a tangent instead of standing with the truth of God’s Word. Again, where is it included in Scripture that Joseph and Mary didn’t have a normal marriage?
 
Hey, is there anybody here at CAF, who believes that Jesus Christ had biological brothers and can you prove it?
According to Matthew 12: verse 47:
(Someone told him [Jesus], “Your mother and your brothers are standing outside, asking to speak with you.”).

This verse is an evidence [for Christians] that Jesus indeed had brothers.

As such this verse was omitted in some important textual “witnesses”, including Codex Sinaiticus (original reading) and Codex Vaticanus. Why? though it is interesting to know but I think this too is among UNSLOVED mysteries of Christianity.
 
According to Matthew 12: verse 47:
(Someone told him [Jesus], “Your mother and your brothers are standing outside, asking to speak with you.”).

This verse is an evidence [for Christians] that Jesus indeed had brothers.

As such this verse was omitted in some important textual “witnesses”, including Codex Sinaiticus (original reading) and Codex Vaticanus. Why? though it is interesting to know but I think this too is among UNSLOVED mysteries of Christianity.
Why do you think the verse number 47 was deliberately omitted whereas the verse 46 was maintained although it had the same reference to Jesus’ brothers?

Matthew 12:46
As he was yet speaking to the multitudes, behold his mother and his brethren stood without, seeking to speak to him.

Why was the following verse not omitted from the manuscripts although it had a more detailed reference to Jesus’ brothers and sisters?

Matthew 13:55
Is not this the carpenter’s son? Is not his mother called Mary, and his brethren James, and Joseph, and Simon, and Jude.

Why did the scribes NOT omit the equivalent of the same verse in the other Gospels?

Please answer these questions. You have lots of time to think. If you fail to answer, I shall not call you a man of unsolved mysteries though 😃
 
Why do you think the verse number 47 was deliberately omitted whereas the verse 46 was maintained although it had the same reference to Jesus’ brothers?

Matthew 12:46
As he was yet speaking to the multitudes, behold his mother and his brethren stood without, seeking to speak to him.

Why was the following verse not omitted from the manuscripts although it had a more detailed reference to Jesus’ brothers and sisters?

Matthew 13:55
Is not this the carpenter’s son? Is not his mother called Mary, and his brethren James, and Joseph, and Simon, and Jude.

Why did the scribes NOT omit the equivalent of the same verse in the other Gospels?

Please answer these questions. You have lots of time to think. If you fail to answer, I shall not call you a man of unsolved mysteries though 😃
The real reason can only be answered by those scribers/or who dictated them to omit it.

I can only give my OPINION. To me:

Omitting so many verses related to brothers could have caused a clear dilemma of alteration/omission when people all of sudden see lots of verses are missing (although in those days, I think, various Bibles were not as easily accessable as they are now).

So scribes/Chruch wanted to omit verses gradually- the verses which go against Church’s concocted view - so that the vast sheep-like majority who hardly knew few repeated verses (learned/heard in their churches) will not easily found out what game is really being played out of their ignorance and out of not easy access to the Bibles. So omitting the verse 47 was probably the beginning of the gradual process.

( An another example is how the first name of Barabbas was omitted from the early manuscripts of the Gospels.)

For verses you asking why they were not omitted, I think Church amy have thought she can manipulate the meaning by keeping them. This incident is also mentioned in Mark’s Gospel. So you can see in the following footnote (to mark 6:3) how they are trying to cover up:

**
3 [3] *Is he not the carpenter?: *
no other gospel calls Jesus a carpenter. Some witnesses have “the carpenter’s son,” as in Matthew 13:55. Son of Mary: contrary to Jewish custom, which calls a man the son of his father, this expression may reflect Mark’s own faith that God is the Father of Jesus (Mark 1:1, 11; 8:38; 13:32; 14:36). The brother of James . . . Simon: in Semitic usage, the terms “brother,” “sister” are applied not only to children of the same parents, but to nephews, nieces, cousins, half-brothers, and half-sisters; cf Genesis 14:16; 29:15; Lev 10:4. While one cannot suppose that the meaning of a Greek word should be sought in the first place from Semitic usage, the Septuagint often translates the Hebrew ah by the Greek word adelphos, “brother,” as in the cited passages, a fact that may argue for a similar breadth of meaning in some New Testament passages. For instance, there is no doubt that in v 17, “brother” is used of Philip, who was actually the half-brother of Herod Antipas.**

But Mark (who is supposedly inspired by the Holy Ghost) apparently understood these very terms literally, so as per Catholic Bible:

**
On the other hand, Mark may have understood the terms literally; see also Mark 3:31-32; Matthew 12:46; 13:55-56; Luke 8:19; John 7:3, 5.
The question of meaning here would not have arisen but for the faith of the church in Mary’s perpetual virginity.**

I think now you can see what is really happening in the text/meaning/interpretations of your Bibles.
 
The real reason can only be answered by those scribers/or who dictated them to omit it.

I can only give my OPINION. To me:

Omitting so many verses related to brothers could have caused a clear dilemma of alteration/omission when people all of sudden see lots of verses are missing (although in those days, I think, various Bibles were not as easily accessable as they are now).

So scribes/Chruch wanted to omit verses gradually- the verses which go against Church’s concocted view - so that the vast sheep-like majority who hardly knew few repeated verses (learned/heard in their churches) will not easily found out what game is really being played out of their ignorance and out of not easy access to the Bibles. So omitting the verse 47 was probably the beginning of the gradual process.
You have still not answered any of my questions. It is not fair of you to put forward your allegations with no reasons. Your new post apparently tries to evade my points, which definitely undermine your theories.

What about Matthew 13:55? Why was it not omitted? Why 12:47 is missing from some of the manuscripts of Matthew’s Gospel only? I hope you do not presume that the scribes had access to Matthew’s manuscripts alone. 😃

You suppose that omitting verse 47 in Matthew 12 was the beginning of the gradual process. What happened to that process? How come it could not go any further than the omission of verse 47 in Matthew 12? Were those scribes such intelligent idiots to start this process with omitting the verse that supposedly posed less threat to their theology than the one in chapter 13 (v. 55)??? Your conspiracy theories make no sense to me since they are so weak and can be refuted with the help of your very assertions.
( An another example is how the first name of Barabbas was omitted from the early manuscripts of the Gospels.)
How is this related to the topic of this thread??? Do you mistakenly assume that Barabbas was claimed to be one of Jesus’ brothers in the NT?
For verses you asking why they were not omitted, I think Church amy have thought she can manipulate the meaning by keeping them. This incident is also mentioned in Mark’s Gospel. So you can see in the following footnote (to mark 6:3) how they are trying to cover up:

But Mark (who is supposedly inspired by the Holy Ghost) apparently understood these very terms literally, so as per Catholic Bible:

I think now you can see what is really happening in the text/meaning/interpretations of your Bibles.
Nope. The only thing I can see is your deliberate digression from the topic of supposed omission of some verses in Matthew to that of the so-called manipulated (traditional) interpretation of the Bible by the Church in favour of Mary’s perpetual virginity. What are the terms that the Church believes Mark understood literally? Could you please specify them? The quotation of the footnote is open to many interpretations, being very ambiguous in nature.

Above all, you now suddenly jump to Mark’s Gospel, which does not omit the same verse as in Matthew 12. Please be consistent and systematic. 😃
 
It is not fair of you to put forward your allegations with no reasons.
I simply showed you what is happening with the text of Gospels and then I gave my OPINION.

Only God knows why those mysterious unknown scribes omitted that verse in question and not the verses your are quoting.

The fact remains that Matthew 12:47 ( (Someone told him [Jesus], "Your mother and your brothers are standing outside, asking to speak with you.") was omitted and why? it is not even known to these scholars of the Bible of our era after about 2000 years:

**
33 [47] This verse is omitted in some important textual witnesses, including Codex Sinaiticus (original reading) and Codex Vaticanus
**
usccb.org/nab/bible/matthew/matthew12.htm#foot33

Isn’t amazing? And you are asking me why?
 
How is this related to the topic of this thread??? Do you mistakenly assume that Barabbas was claimed to be one of Jesus’ brothers in the NT?

This was just a sidenote about how names/text is altered in the Bibles by the scribes/churches.

Just take a look the New Revised Standard Version of the Bible which is unlike the KJV Bible, and also see your recent Catholic’s NAB where:
"That name [Jesus] is bracketed because of its uncertain textual attestation. The Aramaic name Barabbas means “son of the father”; the irony of the choice offered between him and Jesus, the true son of the Father, would be evident to those addressees of Matthew who knew that."
 
I simply showed you what is happening with the text of Gospels and then I gave my OPINION.

Only God knows why those mysterious unknown scribes omitted that verse in question and not the verses your are quoting.

The fact remains that Matthew 12:47 ( (Someone told him [Jesus], "Your mother and your brothers are standing outside, asking to speak with you.") was omitted and why? it is not even known to these scholars of the Bible of our era after about 2000 years:

usccb.org/nab/bible/matthew/matthew12.htm#foot33

Isn’t amazing? And you are asking me why?
I do not want to think that you bring up this issue with no good reason or without aiming to reach a conclusion. However, all the possible conclusions I personally draw from your remarks eventually go against your theories and debunk them.

It is also not an amazing thing since scholars can give a reason for the omission of that verse in Matthew 12. The following part was taken from bible.org:

A few ancient mss and versions lack this verse (א* B L Γ pc ff1 k sys,c sa). The witness of א and B is especially strong, but internal considerations override this external evidence. **Both v. 46 and 47 end with the word λαλῆσαι (“to speak”), so early scribes probably omitted the verse through homoioteleuton. **The following verses make little sense without v. 47; its omission is too hard a reading. Thus v. 47 was most likely part of the original text.
 
This was just a sidenote about how names/text is altered in the Bibles by the scribes/churches.

Just take a look the New Revised Standard Version of the Bible which is unlike the KJV Bible, and also see your recent Catholic’s NAB where:

No, i don’t think this Barabbas whose first name was Jesus and last name was son of the father, was not the biological brother of Jesus -the Son of Mary.
Can you prove that the word Barabbas had the same doubtful textual attestation in all of the four Gospels? What kind of a deep theological impact could its omission have on Christianity? NONE 😃
 
Happyday, Raul Black, aren’t you tired repeating these same claims time after time since you were banned?

Angelos, he will claim next that it was Barabbas who was crucified 😃 Muslims’ conspiracy theories have no end 😉
 
Your ascertions are wild and unfounded. This is the very thing that happens when a person or persons goes off on a tangent instead of standing with the truth of God’s Word. Again, where is it included in Scripture that Joseph and Mary didn’t have a normal marriage?
Shlom lokh,

Hmm, this is an odd statemen you have made, brother SIA. It seems to be in conflict with what Anglicans believed up until recently. Something obviously changed. That would mean they would have to have been wrong at some point. Hypothetically, if they were wrong about Mary, how could you trust them to get other things right?

Alloho minokhoun,
Andrew
 
Can you prove that the word Barabbas had the same doubtful textual attestation in all of the four Gospels?
According to Catholic NAB bible, it is not the word Barabbas but the first name ‘Jesus’ has "uncertain textual attestation."

And as far ‘Barabbas’, it is an Aramaic name which "means “son of the father”; the irony of the choice offered between him and Jesus, the true son of the Father, would be evident to those addressees of Matthew who knew that."
usccb.org/nab/bible/matth…ew27.htm#foot9

This what your Catholic Bible tells you and us. So you should ask those scholars or your magesterium to expalin it you.
 
I haven’t seen anyone refer yet to the “Protoevangelium of James”. Not part of the bible but still an historical document of that time period.
catholic.com/library/mary_ever_virgin.asp

The above link should help prove that Mary was forever Virgin and therefore Jesus had no “brethen”.
 
I haven’t seen anyone refer yet to the “Protoevangelium of James”. Not part of the bible but still an historical document of that time period.
catholic.com/library/mary_ever_virgin.asp

The above link should help prove that Mary was forever Virgin and therefore Jesus had no “brethen”.
I addressed that document (also referred to as the Infancy Gospel of James) in an earlier post. Modern scholars have ruled out authorship by James. Since it’s authorship is dubious it’s not something typically relied on for doctrine.

There were all sorts of peculiar practices in early Christianity. My favorite example is if you line up twenty people, give the first guy a message and tell him to pass it down, by the time it gets to the twentieth guy you won’t even be able to recognize the original message. This is why I proceed with caution when considering non-canonical texts or traditions that don’t seem to fit the structure of accepted scripture.
 
According to Catholic NAB bible, it is not the word Barabbas but the first name ‘Jesus’ has "uncertain textual attestation."

And as far ‘Barabbas’, it is an Aramaic name which "means “son of the father”; the irony of the choice offered between him and Jesus, the true son of the Father, would be evident to those addressees of Matthew who knew that."
usccb.org/nab/bible/matth…ew27.htm#foot9

This what your Catholic Bible tells you and us. So you should ask those scholars or your magesterium to expalin it you.
However, the footnote in the Catholic Bible does not agree with you. There is nothing there to support your theory.

Thanks for evading my question once more 🙂
 
Happyday, Raul Black, aren’t you tired repeating these same claims time after time since you were banned?

Angelos, he will claim next that it was Barabbas who was crucified 😃 Muslims’ conspiracy theories have no end 😉
That’s because they can never find evidence for any of their assertions. 😃
 
I addressed that document (also referred to as the Infancy Gospel of James) in an earlier post. Modern scholars have ruled out authorship by James. Since it’s authorship is dubious it’s not something typically relied on for doctrine.

There were all sorts of peculiar practices in early Christianity. My favorite example is if you line up twenty people, give the first guy a message and tell him to pass it down, by the time it gets to the twentieth guy you won’t even be able to recognize the original message. This is why I proceed with caution when considering non-canonical texts or traditions that don’t seem to fit the structure of accepted scripture.
Hi Sola you pop up everywhere. And at 5am in the morning too!!!

You are a stubborn* ITCH*/COLOR]

I am convinced that one of these days we will come across an edition of The Bible According to “Sola Scripture”!!!

Still you do provide entertainment. This subject is beginning to sound like a gossip column - have you noticed??

😛 :rotfl: :rolleyes:
 
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