Hi, I am a Catholic with a Christian Science question

[Laurel]

Also, why was this moved to non-Cathloic religions when I was trying to ask other Catholics what they thought?

 

[HagiaSophia]

Laurel:

Also, why was this moved to non-Cathloic religions when I was trying to ask other Catholics what they thought?

Since you indicated by the thread title that it concerned a Christian Science question, I’m sure the moderator took you at your word and moved it to the Non-Catholic section where other faiths are discussed.

 

[Meggie]

I am sorry I haven’t been back to this thread for a while Laurel, I miss getting PM’s from you.

Couples for Christ is a family ministry. The title “CFC” covers all of the minisistries of their outlook including ones for children, youth, single, and widdowed.

They chapters that should be near you. Check it out.

Nothing is as great for answering questions as true Catholic fellowship. I learned this through my LifeTeen group.

 

[Joan_M]

Laurel:

Mike,

After all, we are only using these bodies while we are here, as temples to God and to carry on the human race?.

No, Laurel, we are not just using our bodies while we are here. At the end of the world our bodies will be resurrected and re-united with our souls.

We are not spirits (or souls) just using a body while on earth. We are body and soul forming one entity. After we die our souls separate from our bodies, and we are incomplete until the resurrection.

 

[Joan_M]

Laurel:

According to S&H, man is not matter; he is not made up of brain, blood, bones and other material elements.

So, what are his brain, blood, bones, etc? Just stuff he wears? Absolute rubbish!

When a sufferer is convinced that there is no reality in his belief of pain,–because matter has no sensation, hence pain in matter is a false belief,–how can he suffer longer?

Again, total rubbish. Nerves transmit pain messages to the brain. Pain is not a false belief.

---

Do you feel the pain of tooth-pulling, when you believe that nitrous-oxide gas has made you unconscious? Yet, in your concept, the tooth, the operation, and the forceps are unchanged.

Either we are conscious or unconscious. Nitrous-oxide certainly can make us unconscious, even if you don’t believe it!

Material beliefs must be expelled to make room for spiritual understanding. We cannot serve both

Then mortals will behold the nothingness of sickness and sin, and sin and sickness will disappear from consciousness. The harmonious will appear real, and the inharmonious unreal.

**Sin is nothing? Sickness is nothing? This is self-blindness! Deny reality, and it goes away! **

Why do these things seem so untrue? **Because they are untrue! If sin is nothingness, why would Jesus have come to save us from sin? **

I could not have explained any of this as well, that is why I used quotes. Do you have any thoughts on what I have presented? I really am interested in the catholic piont of view.

Sincerely, Laurel

My thoughts, Laurel? Run from “Christian Science” as fast as you can. There is absolutely no truth in it. If something has no truth it can only be from the devil.

 

[MaggieOH]

Laurel:

MaggieOH,

I have read your post to me and I have been doing the readings you suggested. I have also been trying to think of what I was going to say to you regarding the topic. The readings you suggested helped. Thank you. The only way that I can explain why what I have gotten from C.S makes sense is this…It is not denial because it is not denying the act itself, just the reality of it in so far as it did not happen to my true self because my true self is not my body, it is my soul and no human can touch that or damage it. So when they say that these things are not real, they are speaking in that context. The fact that we should not acknowledge the pain the body suffers does not mean try to imagine that the injuries on the body did not happen, rather that they did not happen to the real person, the soul. Mary Baker Eddy does acknowledge the need for a surgoen or the need to have a broken bone set. She even had a tooth pulled with anesthesia once, or so I am told. She acknowledges that the reason why drugs like that work is because we believe they do. A hard thing to understand, but considering the success that doctors have had with placebo tests…poeple getting pain relief from a sugar pill… it makes me ask why couldn’t I just accept that nothing was done to me, just my body and therefore I don’t have to feel as though anything was taken from me. Even the Catholic Church says that if a person is a victim of rape or incest and was a virgin at the time, they are still a virgin. that makes no physical sense, but the church sees that the persons soul, which is the real person is untouched because the body and the mind were unwilling. Do you see what I mean?

Laurel,

by taking that kind of line you are dissociating from yourself. There is a real danger involved if you continue down the path of dissociation. There are so many charlatans in the field of psychology and psychiatry that one has to be very careful in seeking help. The answers do not come from Christian Science if they are telling you that this did not happen to your soul.

There is a definite element of the soul involved in any form of abuse. The first step in recovery is to admit that it happened, then to acknowledge the pent up hurts and feelings associated with the abuse. Only after going through this first step are you able to begin to inwardly switch off to the harm that has been caused by the abuse.

There is more to be gained from going to a reputable psychologist and taking on 10 weeks or so of CBT than listening to the teachings of Christian Science.

This stuff is as dangerous if not more so than Theophostic Prayer. What bothers me most is the disassociation from self. If you keep doing that you could end up being mentally ill!!

Maggie

 

[MaggieOH]

NightRider:

Hi Laurel,

I dissociated a great deal in my childhood, due to repeated sexual, physical and emotional traumas. Dissociation does make sense to the person dissociating, but it causes longterm damage to one’s mental well-being and can actually cause amnesia, as it did in my case. There were details of the abuse done to me that I didn’t remember for 35 years, because of the dissociation. The body always remembers what has been done to it; the mind can dissociate from it so as not to experience the trauma at the time it is taking place.

There are some excellent books on this topic. The best help I have found is in Judith Hermann’s *Trauma and Recovery. *I have read it cover to cover twice and the information she provides helped me to understand myself and what I have been through immensely. Also, many of Alice Miller’s books are excellent–she deals extensively with this topic, too. And then there’s the huge workbook entitled Courage to Heal about childhood sexual abuse. It was integral to my recovery and helped me to realize why it is so important to work through every aspect of the abuse and its effects. I recommend it highly.

Also, it is important to note that many people who become involved in CS, especially women, have been abused in some way. I believe this is so because in CS one is required to “rise above it,” but unfortunately most abuse survivors cannot rise above anything until they deal with their abuse directly and not relegate it to elsewhere. Consequently many of these survivors feel like failures in CS. I agree with Puzzleannie, in that this can be very hurtful and damaging to abuse survivors; it becomes another form of abuse of the survivor. It is not inconsequential that many abuse survivors end up being reabused in many different ways in our lives: it is simply *familiar. *Unfortunately, familiarity can be mistaken for *safety. *Many of us abuse survivors have to relearn everything in order to actually be fully safe…

Anyway, Laurel, these ar important issues you are investigating, and may you find the peace and the love of Christ all through your process! Many blessings,

Geraldine

Hi Geraldine,

You made some very good points. I did get a bit out of the Alice Miller books. It was suggested that I get two of them. One of them I have read at least twice and keep going back to it because of the way in which she deals with the consequences of child abuse. However, I do not agree about the other book “A Courage to Heal”. There are some inconsistencies in that book. I own it but after I read a little bit of it, I decided that I did not spend my money very wisely.

The reason that I say that is that for me during the time of my abuse I was fully aware of what was happening to me. I did not dissociate and I did not forget. I know the devastating effects that it had upon me too, but I had no real control over my emotions. What I had to unlearn is that it is ok for me to have some of those feelings that I wanted to deny.

Maggie

 

[Peace-bwu]

Laurel:

Hi PhilVaz,

I have read the article. I see why C.S has been the subject of controversy. Thank you for your concern and for the article.

How then can one explain what I described to Shibboleth. I felt no pain, and also my mental pain has almost disappeared, along with my nightmares. I am not defending C.S, I am just asking.

Laurel

Pain is real, as real can be. The brain is a very powerful organ and a person can learn to manipulate his or her brain. A person can learn to block out much pain, even with nerve numbing medicines and anasthetics. Sometimes the manipulation as you were talking about with the experience of dissociation during abuse, is an instinctive survival technique.
I went through natural childbirth with all three of my children, using the Lamaze method the first time it seems to use breathing to distract from the pain, it didn’t work for me. For the second and third children I used the Bradley method which uses relaxation and various coping techniques to minimize fear, relax and focus on the muscles working to do their job rather than fighting the pain of the contractions. I coupled these techniques with my usual prayer life of offering the pain up for the conversion of sinners, and The result was amazing. The pain was quite bearable and by reminding myself “This is what my body is supposed to do, Its just muscles working” I was able to overcome the fear and anxiety which made the pain much more bearable. My point is, the material world is not in conflict with the spiritual world. Although a person can become spiritually starved by focusing only on the material world, God uses the material world to develop our souls and the material world will continue to exist after we die. Pain is real and it is there for a purpose, you have just trained your mind to block it out. It’s ok to find ways to endure pain but I would think twice before I let it steer me away from the Catholic Church. Sometimes evil can put itself in a rather appealing package, under the guise of religion, if this new interest is steering you away from Christ and Truth, it raises suspicion.

 

[Peace-bwu]

You are body AND soul. Your body is a part of your true self and they are both a gift from God to be respected and loved. How do you explain Christ’s resurrection? If His body were not important, or a part of His true self, why did he resurrect from the dead? God uses the material world to do miraculous things! You have to experience your physical body, including the pain, in order to be a whole person. To do anything less is to deny reality and become numb to the world around you. At the end of time we will all receive our bodies, if this were not important why is it a part of basic traditional Christian belief? To buy into the CS doctrine is to deny the basics of Christianity. Do you not believe Jesus felt extreme pain while dying on the cross? If CS beliefs about pain not being real because the body is not a part of one’s true self, then Christ’s sacrifice meant nothing because he couldn’t feel it. Why would God take on a real human body and feel real human pain if it were not important? This belief system just doesn’t pan out with Christianity, with Truth. For real healing, for the soul to heal, one must feel pain and overcome it. Just remember, you are not responsible for the way you were treated, you didn’t deserve it. Abuse affects the soul because it is united with your body. Your soul was there when it was happening. I am afraid the interest in the CS belief system is a part of the affect.

 

[Peace-bwu]

Do you feel the pain of tooth-pulling, when you believe that nitrous-oxide gas has made you unconscious? Yet, in your concept, the tooth, the operation, and the forceps are unchanged.

Either we are conscious or unconscious. Nitrous-oxide certainly can make us unconscious, even if you don’t believe it!

How do you explain infants going under anesthesia for surgery? They don’t know what it is so they can’t trick their minds into believing anything, they just wake up and when the medication wears off they cry in pain.

 

[Laurel]

Hi,

Christian Science focuses on Christ and the truth. Christian Scientists read the bible and pray and they know how important Christ is. They don’t try to take anyone away from God, on the contrary they are very religious people. With that said I can say that I don’t call Jesus the wayshower or believe that he is separate from Christ. I believe in the trinity and I pray to Mary. No one at spirituality.com asks me to re-think Catholocism. I read Science and Health and take from it inspiration for life…not lessons on who God is. I am Catholic and I know that already. I enjoy the weekly bible readings online. They are relaxing to watch. I do believe that my soul is unharmed and that is not denial. My mind and body were affected, but not my soul. Only God has access to that. I appreciate all your responses, but I have become clocer to God since I was introduced to C.S. Not because of their beliefs but because of their fellowship and learning tools for the bible. I know some say just read it and that’s enough, but I have ADD and “just reading the bible” is not as easy as it sounds. Besides, all of their ideas are not off base. I do not deny my faith…I am open to others approaches to spirituality.

 

[Laurel]

Peace-bwu:

How do you explain infants going under anesthesia for surgery? They don’t know what it is so they can’t trick their minds into believing anything, they just wake up and when the medication wears off they cry in pain.

Like I said above I don’t believe everything they teach. But on that topic why are infant boys still circumsized without anesthisia?. In nursing school I had the job of restraining 2 infants for this proceedure and asked the docs that question. They said they cry because of the presure of the gomco or whatever it is called, they don’t feel the actual cutting. I can say that they feel the cutting and they scream. That is why my son had pain killer during his…I made sure of that. I speak only of emotional pain. Not being a Christian Scientist I cannot explain better that that, but you can go to spirituality.com if you want, the people there would be happy to tell you what M.B E says about the subject. They are really nice people there…they too are my friends.

 

[Laurel]

Peace-bwu:

How do you explain infants going under anesthesia for surgery? They don’t know what it is so they can’t trick their minds into believing anything, they just wake up and when the medication wears off they cry in pain.

Like I said above, I don’t believe everything they teach. But on that topic why are infant boys still circumsized without anesthisia?. In nursing school I had the job of restraining 2 infants for this proceedure and asked the docs that question. They said they cry because of the presure of the gomco or whatever it is called, they don’t feel the actual cutting. I can say that they feel the cutting and they scream. That is why my son had pain killer during his…I made sure of that. I speak only of emotional pain. Not being a Christian Scientist I cannot explain better that that, but you can go to spirituality.com if you want, the people there would be happy to tell you what M.B E says about the subject. They are really nice people there…they too are my friends.

 

[Peace-bwu]

American Academy of Pediatrics Circumcision Policy/ Study:

aap.org/advocacy/archives/marcircum.htm

**
Is Circumcision Painful?
When done without pain medicine, circumcision is painful. There are pain medicines available that are safe and effective. The American Academy of Pediatrics recommends that they be used to reduce pain from circumcision. Local anesthetics can be injected into the penis to lower pain and stress in infants. There are also topical creams that can help. Talk to your pediatrician about which pain medicine is best for your son. Problems with using pain medicine are rare and usually not serious.

**
I was thankful to find research from the AAP when I was pregnant with my son to help my husband and I decied not to put him through a virtually unnecessary procedure. Off the topic but it clearly demonstrates that physical pain is real. This is a “parent friendly” version, but the in-depth medical research can also be found on this site which was most helpful to me.

To me, when a religious organization promotes false doctrine/teahings, I can’t trust them to be accurate about anything else. Note, I’m not talking about individual people making mistakes, but actual false doctrine or beliefs. I can’t pick and choose to take their word on one thing and know for certain they are wrong about other topics.

Sorry if I misunderstood that you were speaking only about emotional pain. In my experience they are closely connected, physical pain causes emotional pain and emotional pain causes physical stress and pain.

I was just hoping to give you some food for thought

But on that topic why are infant boys still circumsized without anesthisia?. In nursing school I had the job of restraining 2 infants for this proceedure and asked the docs that question. They said they cry because of the presure of the gomco or whatever it is called, they don’t feel the actual cutting. I can say that they feel the cutting and they scream. That is why my son had pain killer during his…I made sure of that.

Babies were thought to not feel pain out of ignorance. Research has shown us evidence that they do feel pain. It was believed that the nerve endings on the forskin were not mature. You were smart to follow your instincts as a nurse.

 

[Joseph_Romero]

This thread has wandered off topic and is now closed.

God Bless,