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dredgtone
Guest
Hi I’m an atheist. Would anybody like to yell at me and tell me I’m going to hell? I’d also like to argue the fact that religious belief is not a choice. Any takers?
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bigdawg
Guest
How is religious belief not a choice?
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squirt
Guest
From a standard Catholic perspective:
If religious belief isn’t a choice, then how could you be condemned to hell or not believing? Only wilful ‘choices’ can be sinful enough to lead to hell. If you have no choice, you can’t be held accoutable for something that you do not will.
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john654
Guest
dredgtone,
No way, Not me! I’m too busy trying to figure out who hung the moon up there?
John
No way, Not me! I’m too busy trying to figure out who hung the moon up there?
John
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dredgtone
Guest
Because choosing is standing at circuit city trying to decide which widescreen to take home. Choice is deciding between maple or cream donuts.
Faith is what falls upon people who are predispositioned to believe, or it falls upon people who chose to question their beliefs, but a choice would imply a delivery of faith overnight. That does not happen.
Even if someone converted overnight because some “miracle” inspired sudden belief, that would not be choice. It would simply be a state of belief as inspired by extraordinary events, and the illusion would be that it was chosen.
You must understand that every belief has a cause and therefore, the choice is really just an illusion of what fell upon you as a result of your background. I’m getting into a bit of determinism here, but lets just say your religious belief is a bit more complex than choosing maple over crumb donuts.
If you maintain belief, you choose to maintain that belief, you don’t choose to believe because you already do.
In essence, the complexity of the subject and the emotional ties with religion make it far more complicated than a simple choice. You cannot call it choice, that which is a gradual process is never a choice.
Furthermore, you’re a Christian, you think your beliefs are the right ones. I’m atheist, I think what i believe is the right one. Therefore why would i choose to believe in something i find implausible, likewise why would you choose to believe in something implausible? I couldn’t believe if i wanted to, because i cannot believe in what doesn’t make sense to me! Therefore whatever we believe was meant to be… The only choice is whether or not you want to question what you believe.
Faith is what falls upon people who are predispositioned to believe, or it falls upon people who chose to question their beliefs, but a choice would imply a delivery of faith overnight. That does not happen.
Even if someone converted overnight because some “miracle” inspired sudden belief, that would not be choice. It would simply be a state of belief as inspired by extraordinary events, and the illusion would be that it was chosen.
You must understand that every belief has a cause and therefore, the choice is really just an illusion of what fell upon you as a result of your background. I’m getting into a bit of determinism here, but lets just say your religious belief is a bit more complex than choosing maple over crumb donuts.
If you maintain belief, you choose to maintain that belief, you don’t choose to believe because you already do.
In essence, the complexity of the subject and the emotional ties with religion make it far more complicated than a simple choice. You cannot call it choice, that which is a gradual process is never a choice.
Furthermore, you’re a Christian, you think your beliefs are the right ones. I’m atheist, I think what i believe is the right one. Therefore why would i choose to believe in something i find implausible, likewise why would you choose to believe in something implausible? I couldn’t believe if i wanted to, because i cannot believe in what doesn’t make sense to me! Therefore whatever we believe was meant to be… The only choice is whether or not you want to question what you believe.
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dredgtone
Guest
exactly thanks for this. But I think its more or less a consensus that a Buddhist isn’t going to hell for not believing in a higher diety. Is it not a matter of what is in one’s heart?
Therefore there is no reason to uphold an illogical notion that faith is a choice, for every act needs a causation and therefore one’s place is life is what fell upon then and it is what they choose to uphold.
It other words, it disturbs me to hear people say it is a choice simply to ease their conscience and to pass the buck - since the atheist is going to hell for not believing, they MUST have chose to deny God. No ignorant ***! I didn’t choose to deny God, it simply happens that i can’t see it any other way.
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jjanderson
Guest
If you believe in hell then you’re not an atheist. Hell exists because we choose to be separated from God. God allows hell to exist because he has given us free will, and will not violate his own gifts. There are many circumstances under which people will not or can not believe in God. There are many environmental and cultural factors that would seem to make it impossible for some people to trust and love a personal God, yet God has given each person a capacity in their soul to know Him, as he sent his Son to die for all men. Every man, with even the slightest, most miniscule amount of desire in his heart to know God (the size of a mustard seed, for example), will be filled with an enormous amount of grace to help his crippled will. God so loves the lost sheep, the prodigal son, and yes, even the atheist, that He will go to great lengths to bring him Home.
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jjanderson
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squirt
Guest
Do you know what the Catholic perspective on faith is? Are you interested?
As for everything needs a cause, is there any need for any non-contingent being to make that worldview coherent?
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chemcatholic
Guest
Did you mean to say that you think your beliefs are right instead of wrong?
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dredgtone
Guest
I beg to differ jjanderson. I’ve been an atheist ever since the 6th grade, even before i could justify my beliefs. I went on a religious retreat to meet girls but i ended up becoming pretty open to the notion of God. During adoration i put aside every morsel of pride and “opened my heart to God”. I went through some pretty insane emotions during the adoration, none of them being indicative of God. So oh well, it was only an affirmation that God does not exist. It was an affirmation on top of my logical justifications.
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hawkeye
Guest
I’m willing, so here we go !!! (question) where where you before you were born ?
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dredgtone
Guest
haha sorry thanks i edited that typo.
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dredgtone
Guest
I’m not all that sure on what the modern day perspective of faith is… I’m interested however if you’d like to enlighten me.
And I like how you turned my own words around on me, haha. But allow me to do the same to you. Is God non-contingent? Why does he get to break the law of physics yet the notion of something coming from nothing alone is unfathomable? This is where the argument becomes circular, because God has no beginning and no end because the Bible says so. Tis a discussion for another day though.
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maggiec
Guest
Why yell at you. You posted for a reason, maybe you’re trying to find your way. I know many here will try and help. I’m not smart enough to express myself in a way that you’ll be able to understand me, I have a habit of leaving things out because I jump ahead and skip over too much, but I will add you to my daily rosary. God be with you.
maggiec
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dredgtone
Guest
Beats me. Who says i needed to be anywhere? You are implying the existance of a soul, which I do not believe in. However if you want to get technical, my potentiality existed in electricity that was probably scattered around the planet somewhere.
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elemenop
Guest
Hi Dredgtone
Trying to follow your logic is beyond me. It gives me one more reason to thank God for my faith. It seems to me that you are using your logic to run so fast that God can’t catch you.
I will say a prayer that you use logic to prove God’s love for you.
Trying to follow your logic is beyond me. It gives me one more reason to thank God for my faith. It seems to me that you are using your logic to run so fast that God can’t catch you.
I will say a prayer that you use logic to prove God’s love for you.
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squirt
Guest
I wasn’t turning your words around, just asking if you found your worldview to be totally coherent. Mine isn’t.
Aristotle posited a non-contingent first cause, and he had never seen a Bible.
I’ll get you a quote on faith from Catholic teachings in a few minutes … unless I fall asleep first.
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dredgtone
Guest
I appreciate the sentiment. I’m very happy in my life’s position as an atheist. I believe that in order for me to want to become a Christian in the first place, I’d probably be complaining about “feeling lost” or that there’s “no purpose in life”. I believe that to be the emotional foundation for faith in the first place. That being said, i feel that i have plenty of purpose in life. The death part does suck though, an afterlife would be nice.
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retina_md
Guest
Dredgstone I’m confused why someone so convinced that there is no God would spend so much time on a Catholic forum. What’s up?
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