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holdencaulfield
Guest
Yes, because some good will come out of your lie. Would it be better to tell the truth and condemn a family to death?
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How come no one has ever brought up “mental reservation” yet? Mental reservation is perfectly moral, and not lying, yet does not give the truth to anyone who does not deserve it.
It may seem like a cop-out but mental reservation is actually a developed Catholic doctrine, and is worth studying. It’s meant to satisfy both justice and veracity. Mental reservation is not a lie, even though it may sound like one to the hearer.
- “You will not find any Jews here.” (it’s true. They’re under the floorboards."
- “Do I look like the kind who would even talk to a Jew?” (I’m not saying anything).
- “There are no Jews here” (for you to find).
It may seem like a cop-out but mental reservation is actually a developed Catholic doctrine, and is worth studying. It’s meant to satisfy both justice and veracity. Mental reservation is not a lie, even though it may sound like one to the hearer.
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SimonX
Guest
Ah, Porthos has finally answered the question of how to save the hidden Jews and avoid the moral choice of lying or not. Never heard your term before of mental reservation. But I have heard your reasoning…nice play!
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holdencaulfield
Guest
Is it in the Catechism?
Not in the exact phrase, although the principle is laid out in 2489, quoted above. The examples answers fall easily within the category of wide mental reservation, and are perfectly legitimate.
The Catholic Encyclopedia article on mental reservation is still a good source, and there has been virtually no change in doctrine since Innocent XI.
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holdencaulfield
Guest
Thanks
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BlaineTog
Guest
But the ends do not justify the means.
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holdencaulfield
Guest
So if you were in the situation you would have said yes I am hiding Jews in my basement.
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kristie_m
Guest
I’m thinking I’d lie, then go to confession. 
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BlaineTog
Guest
Of course not. They don’t have the right to that information. But neither would I lie to them, because I just do not see how this right to lie could come from God. Don’t get me wrong, I’d love to be able to lie to them, but I just don’t see how you can make the jump from “they don’t have the right to this information” to “I have the right to lie.”
Going to confession means if you would do differently if you could have a second chance.I’m thinking I’d lie, then go to confession.
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Orionthehunter
Guest
When a person is under unjust duress, one is morally permitted to take any proporationate and appropriate step in their control to remove themselves from the duress.
In this situation, I’d say anything necessary to protect these people. It is not only morally permissable. It is morally required.
Those who say I’m lying in the context of the Catechism are wrong. Lying is misleading and a sin. However, for an act to be a sin, it must be freely entered into. In this situation, teh Nazi’s have unjustly removed the opportunity for me to be honest. I made a prior promise the Jews to protect them. I must honor that. The Nazi’s didn’t come t the door to ask “Do you have a TV so we may tax it.” They came to the door asking if I have any Jews in the house so they may kill them.
And the silence argument is wrong. If I refuse to answer this question, what will happen? They will search the house and kill the jews. And I will have effectively violated my vow to protect the Jews in the house. Silence is an answer as well.
In this situation, I’d say anything necessary to protect these people. It is not only morally permissable. It is morally required.
Those who say I’m lying in the context of the Catechism are wrong. Lying is misleading and a sin. However, for an act to be a sin, it must be freely entered into. In this situation, teh Nazi’s have unjustly removed the opportunity for me to be honest. I made a prior promise the Jews to protect them. I must honor that. The Nazi’s didn’t come t the door to ask “Do you have a TV so we may tax it.” They came to the door asking if I have any Jews in the house so they may kill them.
And the silence argument is wrong. If I refuse to answer this question, what will happen? They will search the house and kill the jews. And I will have effectively violated my vow to protect the Jews in the house. Silence is an answer as well.
po18guy
Well-known member
Lying remains a sin, but an easily forgiven one in such an event. The greater good of saving God’s chosen, and the risk of one’s own life by lying, will be remembered by the Lord.
Christ’s peace.
V
Valke2
Guest
Since you probably lied about one thing or another several times over the last week, I don’t think God would look upon you too kindly if you chose the moment when you could save a life by lying, to tell the truth.
D
Daniel_Marsh
Guest
Hebrews 11:31 By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace.
Matthew 1:5
Salmon the father of Boaz, whose mother was Rahab, Boaz the father of Obed, whose mother was Ruth, Obed the father of Jesse,
James 2:25
In the same way, was not even **Rahab **the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction?
Joshua 2
**Rahab and the Spies **
1 Then Joshua son of Nun secretly sent two spies from Shittim. “Go, look over the land,” he said, “especially Jericho.” So they went and entered the house of a prostitute [a] named Rahab and stayed there.
2 The king of Jericho was told, “Look! Some of the Israelites have come here tonight to spy out the land.” 3 So the king of Jericho sent this message to Rahab: “Bring out the men who came to you and entered your house, because they have come to spy out the whole land.”
4 But the woman had taken the two men and hidden them. She said, “Yes, the men came to me, but I did not know where they had come from. 5 At dusk, when it was time to close the city gate, the men left. I don’t know which way they went. Go after them quickly. You may catch up with them.” 6 (But she had taken them up to the roof and hidden them under the stalks of flax she had laid out on the roof.) 7 So the men set out in pursuit of the spies on the road that leads to the fords of the Jordan, and as soon as the pursuers had gone out, the gate was shut.
8 Before the spies lay down for the night, she went up on the roof 9 and said to them, “I know that the LORD has given this land to you and that a great fear of you has fallen on us, so that all who live in this country are melting in fear because of you. 10 We have heard how the LORD dried up the water of the Red Sea ** for you when you came out of Egypt, and what you did to Sihon and Og, the two kings of the Amorites east of the Jordan, whom you completely destroyed. [c] 11 When we heard of it, our hearts melted and everyone’s courage failed because of you, for the LORD your God is God in heaven above and on the earth below. 12 Now then, please swear to me by the LORD that you will show kindness to my family, because I have shown kindness to you. Give me a sure sign 13 that you will spare the lives of my father and mother, my brothers and sisters, and all who belong to them, and that you will save us from death.”
14 “Our lives for your lives!” the men assured her. “If you don’t tell what we are doing, we will treat you kindly and faithfully when the LORD gives us the land.”
15 So she let them down by a rope through the window, for the house she lived in was part of the city wall. 16 Now she had said to them, “Go to the hills so the pursuers will not find you. Hide yourselves there three days until they return, and then go on your way.”
17 The men said to her, “This oath you made us swear will not be binding on us 18 unless, when we enter the land, you have tied this scarlet cord in the window through which you let us down, and unless you have brought your father and mother, your brothers and all your family into your house. 19 If anyone goes outside your house into the street, his blood will be on his own head; we will not be responsible. As for anyone who is in the house with you, his blood will be on our head if a hand is laid on him. 20 But if you tell what we are doing, we will be released from the oath you made us swear.”
21 “Agreed,” she replied. “Let it be as you say.” So she sent them away and they departed. And she tied the scarlet cord in the window.
22 When they left, they went into the hills and stayed there three days, until the pursuers had searched all along the road and returned without finding them. 23 Then the two men started back. They went down out of the hills, forded the river and came to Joshua son of Nun and told him everything that had happened to them. 24 They said to Joshua, “The LORD has surely given the whole land into our hands; all the people are melting in fear because of us.”
Yes, you “lie” in this case, no problem.**
Matthew 1:5
Salmon the father of Boaz, whose mother was Rahab, Boaz the father of Obed, whose mother was Ruth, Obed the father of Jesse,
James 2:25
In the same way, was not even **Rahab **the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction?
Joshua 2
**Rahab and the Spies **
1 Then Joshua son of Nun secretly sent two spies from Shittim. “Go, look over the land,” he said, “especially Jericho.” So they went and entered the house of a prostitute [a] named Rahab and stayed there.
2 The king of Jericho was told, “Look! Some of the Israelites have come here tonight to spy out the land.” 3 So the king of Jericho sent this message to Rahab: “Bring out the men who came to you and entered your house, because they have come to spy out the whole land.”
4 But the woman had taken the two men and hidden them. She said, “Yes, the men came to me, but I did not know where they had come from. 5 At dusk, when it was time to close the city gate, the men left. I don’t know which way they went. Go after them quickly. You may catch up with them.” 6 (But she had taken them up to the roof and hidden them under the stalks of flax she had laid out on the roof.) 7 So the men set out in pursuit of the spies on the road that leads to the fords of the Jordan, and as soon as the pursuers had gone out, the gate was shut.
8 Before the spies lay down for the night, she went up on the roof 9 and said to them, “I know that the LORD has given this land to you and that a great fear of you has fallen on us, so that all who live in this country are melting in fear because of you. 10 We have heard how the LORD dried up the water of the Red Sea ** for you when you came out of Egypt, and what you did to Sihon and Og, the two kings of the Amorites east of the Jordan, whom you completely destroyed. [c] 11 When we heard of it, our hearts melted and everyone’s courage failed because of you, for the LORD your God is God in heaven above and on the earth below. 12 Now then, please swear to me by the LORD that you will show kindness to my family, because I have shown kindness to you. Give me a sure sign 13 that you will spare the lives of my father and mother, my brothers and sisters, and all who belong to them, and that you will save us from death.”
14 “Our lives for your lives!” the men assured her. “If you don’t tell what we are doing, we will treat you kindly and faithfully when the LORD gives us the land.”
15 So she let them down by a rope through the window, for the house she lived in was part of the city wall. 16 Now she had said to them, “Go to the hills so the pursuers will not find you. Hide yourselves there three days until they return, and then go on your way.”
17 The men said to her, “This oath you made us swear will not be binding on us 18 unless, when we enter the land, you have tied this scarlet cord in the window through which you let us down, and unless you have brought your father and mother, your brothers and all your family into your house. 19 If anyone goes outside your house into the street, his blood will be on his own head; we will not be responsible. As for anyone who is in the house with you, his blood will be on our head if a hand is laid on him. 20 But if you tell what we are doing, we will be released from the oath you made us swear.”
21 “Agreed,” she replied. “Let it be as you say.” So she sent them away and they departed. And she tied the scarlet cord in the window.
22 When they left, they went into the hills and stayed there three days, until the pursuers had searched all along the road and returned without finding them. 23 Then the two men started back. They went down out of the hills, forded the river and came to Joshua son of Nun and told him everything that had happened to them. 24 They said to Joshua, “The LORD has surely given the whole land into our hands; all the people are melting in fear because of us.”
Yes, you “lie” in this case, no problem.**
O
Orionthehunter
Guest
You make a good point when there is a degree of self-righteousness that is not deserved it would be hypocritical to claim to be moral in the face of evil. One must never hide behind a false “morality” to do evil. But it is likely that a person who would risk their family in such an environment is a righteous person. For that person, I endeavor to give them proper moral standards to lead them to do the right thing.
Example: Husband thinks wife has gotten fat. She asks “do these pants make my butt look big”. Husband hides behind the obstensible truth to say “Yes” because his agenda is to shame her into losing weight. He isn’t telling the truth but serving his own agenda.
On the surface, the true questions appears clear. but in reality she is really asking “will I look as good as I can today in these pants”. One has to look deeply into what is the real question being asked to give a truly honest answer. As her husband, he made a prior vow to love his wife for better or worse. It is not a loving act to not make the effort to discern the real question (not what it appears to be on its face) so he can give an answer that will serve his agenda.
When the Germans ask are their any Jews in the house, the question is not what they are really asking and it doesn’t take into consideration legitimacy to ask the question.
Real Question: “Are their Jews here with the unspoken addendum “so that I may kill them”?” Truthful answer: No with the unspoken addendum “because what you propose to do is outside your legitimate right and to confirm their presence forces me to violate a prior vow.”
Legitimacy: This is the most important portion to this issue. The person asking the question has to have a legimate right to a truthful answer. In this case, I hope legitimacy is not an issue.
But in every day life, we are placed in situations where we have to exercise our prudential judgment on their legitimacy. If I have information which I’ve made a commitment to keep it confidential, I’m obligated to protect that confidence unless the person asking the question has legitimacy to the information. If legitimate, then I’m morally obligated to give a truthful answer. If illegitimate, their question places me in illegitimate duress because they either have not right to the information or no right to ask the question. When under duress, I have a right (and in the case of a prior vow, an obligation) to take proportionate action to remove the duress.
The idea that silence is the answer is wrong if the questioner willlikely reach gain the information to which they have no right. It is an example of trying to hide behind “morality” to do something immoral. In the case of the Nazi’s, silence will be definitely inferred there are Jews in the house. In real life, the prudential test is more difficult.
For instance, if the odds are 10% the person will gain the information from silence and the matter is not grave, silence is the required act because of proportionate. If the odds are 90% and the consequences of giving the information is grave (violation of trust or other grave consequences), the duress is such that proportionality might allow overt deception.
The situations are remote when not being truthful is justified. I just want to raise the concept that prudential judgment with regard to legitimacy and duress can come into play.
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Scottgun
Guest
See the absurdity of the scenario yet? It’s been tailored just so that the only choice apparently is to do the wrong thing. This is like saying, “you were a slut in the past, who are you to preach chastity now that you have had all the fun?”
The CCC is abundantly clear: lying is objectively wrong. It’s an absolute moral norm. And just like there is no prudential wiggle-room for direct abortion, there is no prudential wiggle-room in lying. The second one admits exceptions for lying, it never ends. No one ever says, “I’m going to do this wrong, muahahaha!” everyone rather says, “My situation is the exception.”, and evil wins again. It’s not about what God thought of you on Tuesday and Thursday as opposed to today, but rather believing Him when He tells you explicitly that lies come from the Evil One.
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scott1228
Guest
It seems to me that the life of St. Thomas More is the perfect guide in this area.
He refused to acknowledge the marriage of Henry VIII to Anne Bolyn and the claim of that king as supreme head of the Church in England, and even went to far as to argue that his silence implied consent.
For his trouble, he lost his head.
He refused to acknowledge the marriage of Henry VIII to Anne Bolyn and the claim of that king as supreme head of the Church in England, and even went to far as to argue that his silence implied consent.
For his trouble, he lost his head.
What a beautiful thought. St. Thomas, you were all good.
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Scottgun
Guest
I’m going by the play *A Man for All Seasons, *so I may be off history-wise, but it is a great scene: he says his silence can only be construed to mean he consented to the content of the oath he refused to take, not that he denied. His accuser says, “is that what the world construes from it?”
More replies, “The world must construe according to it’s wit, this court must construe according to the law.” Nice burn.
Nice quote as well. Good to remember when the world is telling you the gnat poop is pepper when looking for license for doing wrong.
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Valke2
Guest
There is some difference of opinion among the Fathers of the Christian Church. Origen quotes Plato and approves of his doctrine on this point (Stromata, VI). He says that a man who is under the necessity of lying should diligently consider the matter so as not to exceed. He should gulp the lie as a sick man does his medicine. He should be guided by the example of Judith, Esther, and Jacob. If he exceed, he will be judged the enemy of Him who said, “I am the Truth.” St. John Chrysostom held that it is lawful to deceive others for their benefit, and Cassian taught that we may sometimes lie as we take medicine, driven to it by sheer necessity.
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But if the common teaching of Catholic theology on this point be admitted, and we grant that lying is always wrong, it follows that we are never justified in telling a lie, for we may not do evil that good may come: the end does not justify the means. What means, then, have we for protecting secrets and defending ourselves from the impertinent prying of the inquisitive? What are we to say when a dying man asks a question, and we know that telling him the truth will kill him outright? We must say something, if his life is to be preserved: he would at once detect the meaning of silence on our part. The great difficulty of the question of lying consists in finding a satisfactory answer to such questions as these.
…
But if the common teaching of Catholic theology on this point be admitted, and we grant that lying is always wrong, it follows that we are never justified in telling a lie, for we may not do evil that good may come: the end does not justify the means. What means, then, have we for protecting secrets and defending ourselves from the impertinent prying of the inquisitive? What are we to say when a dying man asks a question, and we know that telling him the truth will kill him outright? We must say something, if his life is to be preserved: he would at once detect the meaning of silence on our part. The great difficulty of the question of lying consists in finding a satisfactory answer to such questions as these.
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Scottgun
Guest
That is a quote from the New Advent article, and illustrates my point exactly. Yes, there were various fathers who thought up some exceptions, but some who didn’t, especially Augustine (not in the quote) who said tell the truth in full, come what may. The kicker quote of course is “But if the common teaching of Catholic theology on this point be admitted” [lying is wrong by it’s very nature]. In other words, that is what the Church teaching is, and it is binding on the faithful. No lying. No exceptions.
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