Hiding from the Nazis question

[SimonX]

Here’s the scenario: It’s 1943 Nazi Germany, you, as a good Catholic family are hiding a small group of Jews from the Germans. The Nazis come to your house one day and want to search your house for Jews or other enemies of the state. Your Jewish friends are safely hidden in a room under the floor boards (under the table).

If the Nazis ask you if you are harboring the people they are looking for, is it morally right to lie to save them from the Nazis, or must you turn them in since you are not supposed to tell the truth.

 

[SimonX]

Here’s the scenario: It’s 1943 Nazi Germany, you, as a good Catholic family are hiding a small group of Jews from the Germans. The Nazis come to your house one day and want to search your house for Jews or other enemies of the state. Your Jewish friends are safely hidden in a room under the floor boards (under the table).

If the Nazis ask you if you are harboring the people they are looking for, is it morally right to lie to save them from the Nazis, or must you turn them in since you are not supposed to tell the truth.

I meant the last line to say…

If the Nazis ask you if you are harboring the people they are looking for, is it morally right to lie to save them from the Nazis, or must you turn them in since you are supposed to tell truth.

 

[ForMary]

I meant the last line to say…

If the Nazis ask you if you are harboring the people they are looking for, is it morally right to lie to save them from the Nazis, or must you turn them in since you are supposed to tell truth.

In your scenario, wouldn’t the hiding of the Jewish people in the first place be a lie (an attempted one or one of omission if the Nazi’s didn’t even come or did come and even searched, but did not ask you in so many words)? So if a person had an issue with lying in this particular situation, would they put themselves in the position to begin with?

Personally, I would like to think that I would have done whatever I needed to if I could spare a single person in that horror of time. But I have no idea what I am capable of unless I walked in those shoes on that path. I did not.

Ultimately, one does what is in one’s heart which is then shown to the world to reveal the person one really is, and to God…well, he knows already.

Is it wrong to lie? Yes.
Is there special dispensation for lying to a cause that is an abomination? Hmmm….glad that ball is in God’s court and not mine.

Jesus even explained that there are times when God’s laws can be broken for just cause (Mt 12:1-7) I think God’s desire for mercy would be the key here.

 

[CapIV]

You lie of course.

Lying isn’t wrong when you are trying to save someone’s life.

This isn’t complicated.

 

[Mintaka]

Hiding someone isn’t “a lie”.

It’s a stratagem. Stratagems are perfectly legal, particularly in war, against criminals or tyrants, and for self-defense and the defense of others. And in fact, the Bible is full of stratagems commanded by God.

It is also permitted to mislead people who have no business asking you questions. Particularly immoral questions with nasty intentions.
Some feel that this includes outright lies; some feel that it’s only permissible to say true things that are misleading. It is always permissible to remain silent.

 

[thistle]

Here’s the scenario: It’s 1943 Nazi Germany, you, as a good Catholic family are hiding a small group of Jews from the Germans. The Nazis come to your house one day and want to search your house for Jews or other enemies of the state. Your Jewish friends are safely hidden in a room under the floor boards (under the table).

If the Nazis ask you if you are harboring the people they are looking for, is it morally right to lie to save them from the Nazis, or must you turn them in since you are not supposed to tell the truth.

If you care to search the forums there are already lots of threads on this topic, including using the exact example you have given!!!
No need for duplicate threads.

 

[Elric]

I meant the last line to say…

If the Nazis ask you if you are harboring the people they are looking for, is it morally right to lie to save them from the Nazis, or must you turn them in since you are supposed to tell truth.

I dont really care if it is morally wrong, I would lie to the Nazis.

Besides that, they would probably execute you for harboring Jews anyway. So there is an element of self preservation to it.

 

[GaryClarke1981]

I’d live rather have to live with telling a lie. Rather than been accountable for assisting killing a family then being killed myself for harbouring.
But hey thats just me!!

 

[Pete_1]

I read something about this before, it was written by a priest I think.
The priest said that it would not be a lie to say that you are not harbouring jews, (if you were). He said this because the Nazi and the harbourer have two different definitions of the word Jew:

The Nazi’s definition of Jew was that of a person not worthy of life.

The harbourers definition of Jew was as that of a human being worthy of life.

So (the priest said) that it would not be a lie to say ‘I am not harbouring any Jews’ as the Nazi was in effect asking, do you have any persons in your house that are unworthy of life, the harbourers answer ‘no’ would be completley true.

I’m not shure if i agree with him

 

[Elric]

I read something about this before, it was written by a priest I think.
The priest said that it would not be a lie to say that you are not harbouring jews, (if you were). He said this because the Nazi and the harbourer have two different definitions of the word Jew:

The Nazi’s definition of Jew was that of a person not worthy of life.

The harbourers definition of Jew was as that of a human being worthy of life.

So (the priest said) that it would not be a lie to say ‘I am not harbouring any Jews’ as the Nazi was in effect asking, do you have any persons in your house that are unworthy of life, the harbourers answer ‘no’ would be completley true.

I’m not shure if i agree with him

Thats just a cop out and a lame one at that.

 

[Scottgun]

You lie of course.

Lying isn’t wrong when you are trying to save someone’s life.

This isn’t complicated.

No it’s not complicated because lying is objectively wrong. Meaning that no amount of good intentions or extreme circumstances can make it right. The scenario is fantastic because Nazis are going to kick in the door matter what you say anyway. One can remain silent or dodge the question. You would bear no responsibility for the Nazi’s evil.

Now for most of us the temptation to lie under such an extreme circumstances is overwhelming and we would likely be less than fully responsible for it, but there is no escape–lying is wrong. No exceptions.

The CCC is here scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s2c2a8.htm#2483

And a New Advent on lying newadvent.org/cathen/09469a.htm that specifically addresses attempts to squeeze in exceptions (and even address a similar scenario) and shows they don’t fly.

 

[Johndigger]

Lying is intrinsically evil. It is never permissable.

What kind of Nazi is going to be say,

“Have you got Jews hiding in your house”

“Of course not” (Lying)

“Oh, ok then. Bye” Nazi walks away

The scenario is utterly ludicrous. A Nazi is not going to take your word for it that there are no Jews in the house - he’s going to search for them regardless of what you say.

You are, of course, allowed to stay silent and or mislead the Nazi, but you MAY NOT LIE.

JD

 

[SimonX]

If you care to search the forums there are already lots of threads on this topic, including using the exact example you have given!!!
No need for duplicate threads.

I am new to the forums, so I promise I will try to find old threads before posting new ones.

Appreciate your posts though, I was trying to get deeper answers to this, and most of you did provide!

Of course, if Nazis thought they had a reason to break into your house, they would search it anyway, but this is kind of an exercise in morality since we all face whether to be deceitful or tell truth every day. Of course, not on this grand scale…worth thinking about…

 

[scott1228]

What if you just respond: “Godwin’s Law?”

 

[SimonX]

What if you just respond: “Godwin’s Law?”

“As a Usenet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one.”

You must be a brain!

Good one.

 

[scott1228]

thought this thread could use a little levity!

Scott

 

[vz71]

The first reply that came to mind was “Would you believe me if I said no?”
After all, they already have cause to be searching. Asking you questions is merely formality.

 

[didymus]

No it’s not complicated because lying is objectively wrong. Meaning that no amount of good intentions or extreme circumstances can make it right. The scenario is fantastic because Nazis are going to kick in the door matter what you say anyway. One can remain silent or dodge the question. You would bear no responsibility for the Nazi’s evil.

Now for most of us the temptation to lie under such an extreme circumstances is overwhelming and we would likely be less than fully responsible for it, but there is no escape–lying is wrong. No exceptions.

The CCC is here scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s2c2a8.htm#2483

And a New Advent on lying newadvent.org/cathen/09469a.htm that specifically addresses attempts to squeeze in exceptions (and even address a similar scenario) and shows they don’t fly.

This is the Catechism entry:
[.283

[2489](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/2489.htm’)

request for information or communicationNo one is bound to reveal the truth to someone who does not have the right to know it](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/2489.htm’)

Do murderers have the right to know where their victims are hidden?

What if, rather than denying that I was hiding Jews, I reacted indignantly, “Whaddya think I am, a Jew-lover?! Go ahead and look for all the good it’ll do you!”
I haven’t lied, but I certainly intend to deceive every bit as much as if I had said, “Nope, no Jews here.”

 

[BlaineTog]

Do murderers have the right to know where their victims are hidden?

No. The problem I have with this issue is making the jump from “the murderer doesn’t have the right to know where his victims are” to “you have the right to lie to the murderer.” Satan is the father of lies, and God is “the Way, the Truth, and the Light,” after all, which says to me that you never have the right to lie, because all rights come from God and God doesn’t have the ability to lie since lies are against his nature.

What if, rather than denying that I was hiding Jews, I reacted indignantly, “Whaddya think I am, a Jew-lover?! Go ahead and look for all the good it’ll do you!”
I haven’t lied, but I certainly intend to deceive every bit as much as if I had said, “Nope, no Jews here.”

Yeah, but they can take or leave your statement as they wish, whereas they have no choice but to believe your lie (assuming you’re a perfect liar, after all; claiming that they might not believe your lie would be like trying to justify birth control because there’s a chance it might fail, a chance which you reduce as much as possible and would eliminate if such were possible without causing yourself further intrusion).

 

[LilyM]

The idea the catechism mentions, of not telling truth to people who have no right to know it, is an interesting one.

One example that comes to mind is the media prying into celebrities’ love lives/social lives/rehab etc, which clearly is nobody’s business but those who are directly concerned.

When it boils down to it, though, not telling someone something (ie NOT telling the Nazis that ‘yes there are a couplea Jews down in the basement’) is different from lying (TELLING them that ‘no, there are no Jews here’).

The option always exists of taking refuge in silence if nothing else will do. And as has already been pointed out, someone who is intent on doing this sort of evil will usually not be dissuaded by even a lie on your part.