High Altars

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This is an interesting post.

Can someone post a “before and after” type photo? I’m new to the Catholic Church and don’t know what a High Altar with rails looks like. :o
 
FAB said:
The Church practiced as a matter of course that the only ones worthy to enter into sactuary were clergy. The message seems clear, the ordinary man and women were not worthy to enter. The faithful were observers and not particiapants. Even the ringing of the bells at the point of consecration was to get the faithfull’s attentention that this was important.
In the Eastern Orthidox tradition there is still this seperation, not with a rail but a wall.
These things harken back to the Jewish temple and the Holy of Holys were God presided and only the high preist could enter.
At our Lord’s death the veil of the temple was torn into. God is now accessible to all. Our worship spaces need to reflect this theology.
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Thus, you’re diminishing the important role of the lay faithful throughout the history of the Church since they were excluded from sacred functions during the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass until the promulgation Missal of Pope Paul VI.
This is an interesting post.
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Can someone post a “before and after” type photo? I’m new to the Catholic Church and don’t know what a High Altar with rails looks like.
Reply With Quote
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An example of at least a free standing altar placed in front of a high altar and altar rail:



Source:

flickr.com/photos/sergemelki/3367028674/
 
FAB said:
The Church practiced as a matter of course that the only ones worthy to enter into sactuary were clergy. The message seems clear, the ordinary man and women were not worthy to enter. The faithful were observers and not particiapants. Even the ringing of the bells at the point of consecration was to get the faithfull’s attentention that this was important.
In the Eastern Orthidox tradition there is still this seperation, not with a rail but a wall.
These things harken back to the Jewish temple and the Holy of Holys were God presided and only the high preist could enter.
At our Lord’s death the veil of the temple was torn into. God is now accessible to all. Our worship spaces need to reflect this theology.
Click to expand...
Are you purposely trying to make people angry ?

Desanctifying the Church does no service to God or man ; in fact, it does a serious disservice to mankind for we suppress those eternal truths manifested in and by our churches for which the human soul longs and craves for.

Read the psalms or any scripture, the seperation between man and God is fixed by nature, and we are invited to share in His life, however, it requires a certain change in us, brought about by God or by cooperating with Him. His Holiness, His very Being is surpassing of all human understanding. God loves us - every Christian knows this ; however, what the Catholic Church also knows and teaches is God’s uniqueness, supremacy, majesty, ad infinitum. We reduce God to common currency when we falsely exagerate and over-emphasize His “lovey-dovey-ness.” He is also a jealous God, a just God, etc.

Sodom and Gomorrah, and their denizens, will not be found in the Sanctuary. Neither will the Canaanites be found near the Tabernacle, nor the Pharisees grapsing at His Sacred Body and Blood or distributing those Sacred Species to anyone who felt up to receiving them. They are unworthy of that by God’s own Word and Judgement. Something about those people must change for them to enter into the Life of God - Not God, nor His Church, needs to change to satisfy such,

Destroying the fundamental differences between God and Man only robs Man of Truth. When the Truth is suppressed, destroyed, bent or anything similar mankind is being robbed of something, denied something. Trying to cover this crime with a pudding of feel-good false theology does not correct the gross injustice of falsefying the Truth or misrepresenting the reality.

God is holy. Destroying those things the Church erects for the edification of Her children towards understanding that Truth does not make Him less holy, but it sure risks making us less holy.

Tim.
 
malphono said:
What disparaging remarks?
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You called his post a “piece of fiction.”
malphono said:
There are plenty of resources available to disprove (or refute or whatever) the comments in that post. Frankly, I’m not interested in playing teacher.
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In other words, you contend that his post is fiction, yet won’t take the effort to explain why. If you’re not “interested in playing teacher” then perhaps you should hold your comments until you can substantiate them.
 
MarkThompson said:
And, lest someone be confused into thinking that they were all beautiful and worth preserving at all costs, here’s another picture of an altar rail in front of a high altar:

http://www.shrineofsaintphilomena.com/PICTURES/fourth_sun_easter_01.jpg
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They can always be improved, always be made more beautiful, always be perfected, because these things stem and flow from the Church’s doctrine, and like that doctrine are capable of genuine, authentic progress towards the further development of the truths contained within them.

There is a difference between development on one hand, and destruction on the other. There is a difference between renewal, and replacement. The very existence of objective Truth will cause those who deny or refuse that Truth to dislike it, even hate it, and desire to supplant, suppress or replace it. Tearing down those things that intimate to the human observer the Truths of our Faith does no justice to anyone.

Pax,
Tim
 
FAB said:
The Church teaches through sign and Symbol.
Both the High Altar and rails represented a seperation of the faithful from the sacrafice of the mass and a seperartion from Christ. Only preist and clergy could pass throught the rails, and never women except for marriage and cleaning.
Jesus came to be amoung us, not to be away from us.
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I’ve never heard of this before. Why are we to be taught that we are separated from Christ? Aren’t the faithful supposed to be with Christ through baptism?
 
Timothy17 said:
They can always be improved, always be made more beautiful, always be perfected, because these things stem and flow from the Church’s doctrine, and like that doctrine are capable of genuine, authentic progress towards the further development of the truths contained within them.

There is a difference between development on one hand, and destruction on the other. There is a difference between renewal, and replacement. The very existence of objective Truth will cause those who deny or refuse that Truth to dislike it, even hate it, and desire to supplant, suppress or replace it. Tearing down those things that intimate to the human observer the Truths of our Faith does no justice to anyone.

Pax,
Tim
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What is the Church’s doctrine on altars?
 
The Mass is a sacrifice, it’s the union of heaven and earth, and it’s the re-presentation of the sacrifice at Calvary. Jesus did not say that temple sacrifice was unnecessary- he became the perfect sacrifice, so that only one sacrifice was necessary (but it was still necessary). Because it’s perfect, it wasn’t just for people alive at the time- it will be around until the end of time. It isn’t just a memorial of what happened centuries ago, or just an opportunity to get warm fuzzies by doing something together with people with whom we share similar beliefs. It’s the wedding feast of the Lamb described in the apocalypse. The high altar emphasizes that something very important- the most important thing the Church does- happens there. We are not separated from Christ. In fact, we receive Him in Holy Communion, which is something much deeper than what the Jews were able to do in the days of the temple- God is certainly accessible to us.

We kneel at a communion rail to show reverence. Jesus is our truest friend, but He’s also God who made the ultimate sacrifice for us unworthy sinners. We owe him our reverence because of who He is, and we owe Him humility because of what He did for us- particularly as He gives us His Body and Blood to eat (how much more up close and personal can you get?). If a friend does something extraordinarily good for us, it is proper to serve them- to give them particular loyalty, and to help and encourage them as much as possible. Those who use communion rails do so for that reason.
 
malphono said:
Yes, the temple curtain was rent. And whether or not one wishes to accept it, God has always been accessible to all. Neither point bears on this thread. Even less does the pejorative and totally inappropriate remark about the iconistatis or altar curtain in the East and Orient (which, BTW, are not only used by the Orthodox).

The rest is merely your opinion.
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As Indicated before we are a church of Symbols, water, fire , oil, etc.,our actions and worship spaces reflect our theology.
The reason for the temple curtian being torn, or rent depending on translation is part of the convenate with Christ that he is amoung use. This is not the same understanding in the Jewish tradition of the time.
To understand why we had certain practices that are no longer used we need to understand history, tradition and theology.
 
Timothy17 said:
Are you purposely trying to make people angry ?

Desanctifying the Church does no service to God or man ; in fact, it does a serious disservice to mankind for we suppress those eternal truths manifested in and by our churches for which the human soul longs and craves for.

Read the psalms or any scripture, the seperation between man and God is fixed by nature, and we are invited to share in His life, however, it requires a certain change in us, brought about by God or by cooperating with Him. His Holiness, His very Being is surpassing of all human understanding. God loves us - every Christian knows this ; however, what the Catholic Church also knows and teaches is God’s uniqueness, supremacy, majesty, ad infinitum. We reduce God to common currency when we falsely exagerate and over-emphasize His “lovey-dovey-ness.” He is also a jealous God, a just God, etc.

Sodom and Gomorrah, and their denizens, will not be found in the Sanctuary. Neither will the Canaanites be found near the Tabernacle, nor the Pharisees grapsing at His Sacred Body and Blood or distributing those Sacred Species to anyone who felt up to receiving them. They are unworthy of that by God’s own Word and Judgement. Something about those people must change for them to enter into the Life of God - Not God, nor His Church, needs to change to satisfy such,

Destroying the fundamental differences between God and Man only robs Man of Truth. When the Truth is suppressed, destroyed, bent or anything similar mankind is being robbed of something, denied something. Trying to cover this crime with a pudding of feel-good false theology does not correct the gross injustice of falsefying the Truth or misrepresenting the reality.

God is holy. Destroying those things the Church erects for the edification of Her children towards understanding that Truth does not make Him less holy, but it sure risks making us less holy.

Tim.
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You are refering to God as understood in the Old Testament, not with the New Covenate of Jesus Christ.
God’s truth is enternal, our understanding, our theology about Him does. As an example, from the time of Mosses to exile, the Hebrews believed that God only resided in the temple. The exile lead them to understand that God is always with them.
The incarnation further changed our understanding of God.
Perhaps your soul yerns for etification in an high altar, I prefer God of the prodigal son who embraces us wihtout question.
 
ConstantineTG said:
I’ve never heard of this before. Why are we to be taught that we are separated from Christ? Aren’t the faithful supposed to be with Christ through baptism?
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Yes we are united with Christ through baptism, so what did a rail and gate represent? Why does one errect a fence around anything? To seperate one thing from another. Why were only the clergy allowed beyond the gate? It was felt that they were to only ones worthy to enter the sanctuary.
Deliberate or not the rails created a physical barrier and it can be said a spiritual one as well.
 
malphono said:
More of one person’s opinion. And a fascinating piece of fiction.
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No, Church teaching.
The ambo and the altar are on the same level, equlity in importance, word and sacrafice.
The priest reverences the altar to indicate that it is central to the liturgy.
 
FAB said:
Yes we are united with Christ through baptism, so what did a rail and gate represent? Why does one errect a fence around anything? To seperate one thing from another. Why were only the clergy allowed beyond the gate? It was felt that they were to only ones worthy to enter the sanctuary.
Deliberate or not the rails created a physical barrier and it can be said a spiritual one as well.
Click to expand...
In the Byzantine Rite, the altar/sanctuary is separated by the Iconostasis. Depending on architecture, some Iconostasis are more solid that others, meaning you can’t peek through as its mostly solid wall. But the symbolism here is that its not meant to separate us from Christ, but that the sanctuary is the world to come and we all would hope one day to get from where we are to that place.
 
ConstantineTG said:
In the Byzantine Rite, the altar/sanctuary is separated by the Iconostasis. Depending on architecture, some Iconostasis are more solid that others, meaning you can’t peek through as its mostly solid wall. But the symbolism here is that its not meant to separate us from Christ, but that the sanctuary is the world to come and we all would hope one day to get from where we are to that place.
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It’s too bad the impassioned view FAB holds has plunged the Roman Rite into great confusion.
 
PA650 said:
It’s too bad the impassioned view FAB holds has plunged the Roman Rite into great confusion.
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I’m not certain waht you mean. The reason for the use of the high altar is part of history as well as the reason it is no longer necessary as part of the construction of church’s. The confusion comes because many have not been taught or have not listened to why the Church does what it does and why.
 
ConstantineTG said:
In the Byzantine Rite, the altar/sanctuary is separated by the Iconostasis. Depending on architecture, some Iconostasis are more solid that others, meaning you can’t peek through as its mostly solid wall. But the symbolism here is that its not meant to separate us from Christ, but that the sanctuary is the world to come and we all would hope one day to get from where we are to that place.
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Thanks for the explaination.
 
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