High-ranking US Jesuit: Married priests would be healthy for the Church

[steve_b]

As an Eastern Orthodox bishop I see a lot of misconception in RCs as to “how the married priesthood would work in practice”. We have had married priests with children since always, never changed our discipline in that, we used to have married bishops for several hundred years until monastic movement was strong enough to provide a steady pool of well-prepared archimandrites for episcopacy. We used to have almost 95% clergy that was martied, nowadays we are at some 80% worldwide. Many priests are 10th or 12th generation of priest. They all have quite large families, rich family life. It has always worked quite well, and I kindly ask you to trust me, as in Orthodoxy we believe that it is our bishops with whom the living tradition is deposited through their apostolic sucession. 95% of all our parish priests are martied and have ever been. And it works all right. Why? The problem is in yoir own post. We do not have a ratio of one priest per 2,000 families. Our settings are different. Our most common case is ”2-3 parish clergy per one church under which fall some 100 families". You should try this system. Works perfectly. And more priests means they can help each other out. Then again, you would need more vocations. Then again, you might see more vocations if you allowed, paralelly with celibate priests, married priests as well.

May the Most Holy Theotokos protect you!

+Gavrilo

Eastern rite(s) of the Catholic Church have priests that can marry. It’s not like the Latin rite doesn’t understand a married clergy. Celibacy isn’t for everyone as Paul taught. Only for those who can accept it.

Thanks for the blessing. And may the God of peace give you many years, and be with you forever.

 

[Tarpeian_Rock]

Eastern rite(s) of the Catholic Church have priests that can marry. It’s not like the Latin rite doesn’t understand a married clergy. Celibacy isn’t for everyone as Paul taught. Only for those who can accept it.

Thanks for the blessing. And may the God of peace give you many years, and be with you forever.

Actually, intellectual awareness of Eastern married clergy on the part of the Latin Rite I think is a very different thing than “understanding.” I don’t think the vast majority of Latin clergy “understand” a married clergy at all. I know too many priests who dont seem to understand “marriage” at all. Witness how Maronite priests in the U.S. were forbidden from exercising their historic tradition of a married priesthood. And I thnk it’s a mistake to define “marriage” in the setting of such a discussion merely in terms of “celibacy” - as popular a preoccupation as sex is with the Western Church. A married cleric brings his whole self and life experiences to his ministry - not just what goes on in his bedroom.

 

[steve_b]

Actually, intellectual awareness of Eastern married clergy on the part of the Latin Rite I think is a very different thing than “understanding.” I don’t think the vast majority of Latin clergy “understand” a married clergy at all. I know too many priests who dont seem to understand “marriage” at all. Witness how Maronite priests in the U.S. were forbidden from exercising their historic tradition of a married priesthood. And I thnk it’s a mistake to define “marriage” in the setting of such a discussion merely in terms of “celibacy” - *as popular a preoccupation *as sex is with the Western Church. A married cleric brings his whole self and life experiences to his ministry - not just what goes on in his bedroom.

My response was intended to simply address what I highlighted in red ** #81 **no more than that.

But as far as Latin clergy not understanding marriage or married priesthood, because they are celibate, that would have disqualified St Paul from teaching on that subject. Celibacy and the Priesthood

I also disagree that the “Western Church” is “preoccupied” with sex. Let me ask, when is the last time you heard a homily in mass on the sexual sins that follow?

• 1 Corinthians 6: 9 - 10 no sexually immoral πόρνοι , , nor idolaters, nor adulterers****,** nor male prostitutes, nor homosexual offenders **10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor slanderers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.

Since that is one heck of a consequence for those sins, the Church has an obligation to teach on them and often. So how many times have you heard a homily on any of THEM? Too often? Very seldom? or Not at all?

I included the Greek behind that English translation because some English translations can dumb down with other words, what is actually being said.Those links in the Greek are operational.

 

[gus]

Why would a Catholic who actually attends a Church want a married Clergy.

Who wants to support the cost of a wife and family.
For me a celibate priesthood is the most efficient.

 

[steve_b]

Why would a Catholic who actually attends a Church want a married Clergy.

Who wants to support the cost of a wife and family.
For me a celibate priesthood is the most efficient.

Actually a priest is father to everyone in his parish. He already has a huge family to care for and take care of their spiritual well being. And in extension he is father to every Catholic and future Catholic.

 

[Sarcelle]

We are talking about celibacy for diocesan priests. Priests in religious orders would take the vows of poverty, chastity and obedience, while diocesan priests do not take a vow of poverty. If priests have children, their wives would take care of them, or, if she is working outside the home, they would arrange for child care.

Isn’t there a view among conservative Catholic that it is wrong for the wife to work outside the home, especially if the job competes with her duties as wife and mother?

So for those who support the concept of married priests, are you prepared to support not only the priest but his wife and the more often than not large number of children they may have? Remember, artificial birth control is out of the question.

 

[Sarcelle]

Eastern rite(s) of the Catholic Church have priests that can marry. It’s not like the Latin rite doesn’t understand a married clergy. Celibacy isn’t for everyone as Paul taught. Only for those who can accept it.

Thanks for the blessing. And may the God of peace give you many years, and be with you forever.

I thought that married men can be ordained priests. However once they are ordained and their wife dies, they cannot remarry.

 

[JimG]

I thought that married men can be ordained priests. However once they are ordained and their wife dies, they cannot remarry.

I believe that is correct.

 

[Tarpeian_Rock]

Isn’t there a view among conservative Catholic that it is wrong for the wife to work outside the home, especially if the job competes with her duties as wife and mother?

So for those who support the concept of married priests, are you prepared to support not only the priest but his wife and the more often than not large number of children they may have? Remember, artificial birth control is out of the question.

Ordaining to the priesthood experienced married deacons who already work for no pay and whose children are grown and gone avoids every issue you mentioned.

 

[steve_b]

I thought that married men can be ordained priests.

Married priests are usually found in the Eastern Rites of the Catholic Church. Occasionally there are Latin rite priests under special circumstances who are married.
S:

However once they are ordained and their wife dies, they cannot remarry.

True

 

[ComplineSanFran]

Honestly, **the RCC **has spoken about the issue for a long time. That is all. Fortunately, in respect of clerical discipline, RCC is just one of 20-some sui juris churches comprising the Catholic Church.

Also, the Western bishops tried to press obligatory celibacy on Eastern priests and deacons several times in the first millenium. Always, they were over-voted and/or corrected by the sum of Eastern bishops, and rightly so.

I am not very happy about a certain measure of what I personally perceive as disingenuity of those that take this stance you describe. To me, it seems you may have closed your eyes and ears to the truth about what “a gift” is. "a gift" is to be offered, and the giver must patiently wait and hope that the intended recipient will accept it freely, or it is no gift. These are the words of Pope Francis (not a direct quotation, but basically he said as much) “A gift” should not be pressed on anyone. Lord Jesus did not press celibacy on his Apostles. He might have said one sentence, and this would be so forever. He chose not to. He simply did not care. Apostles did not press celibacy on their disciples either, there is overwhelming evidence of that. And Apostles were the living Church. Bishops of Rome did not press celibacy on their clergy for many, many generations. Many were married priests themselves.

To conclude: may both East and West keep celibate clergy, they are a special gift. But let us not make it into anything more than that. I say, for the 20-some Eastern sui juris Catholic churches and for all Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox churches married priests are a gift from the Head of the One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, from Jesus Christ. As it always was, as it always will be.

What do I, an Orthodox bishop, care about the Catholic Church? I have to. We all have to care about all our brothers and sister, if we are to be obedient to our Master´s words. Plus, not an insignificant number of our clergy and faithful, over the centuries, have entered the door of Unia. They are still our brothers, just like Roman Catholics.

One more note from Orthodoxy: there is a difference in a celibate priestly life when lived alone and when lived in a monastery. If RCC kept celibate priests and had them in monasteries, where the brothers can supporteach other every waking hour of every day, and also keep watch over each other, that would work a lot better than when the celibate priests have to live alone and in the world, being subject to so much temptation and seduction and virtually no one to be there for them in time of need. In the setting I see the difference that matters.

In Christ,
+Gavrilo

Bishop, I don’t think people are listening to you very well. I have only been on this forum a short time, but I have been lurking for several years. This discussion goes round and round and round.

Anglicans, of course, have married clergy. It seems to work just fine. The world has not ended. People in the parish get tended to. Families get tended to.

One thing that I ponder, however, regarding the RCC: will laicized priests who left to get married be allowed back in? That might help balance the number of heterosexual priests with the number of homosexual priests already serving. I have heard that the numbers are up to 50% who are gay. My own experience (albeit in California), bears that out.

It will be very interesting to see how this unfolds.

 

[thejeopardyfan]

Do we know how many laicized priests there are in the U.S.? There can’t be many, especially who left to get married to a specific person.

 

[ComplineSanFran]

Do we know how many laicized priests there are in the U.S.? There can’t be many, especially who left to get married to a specific person.

That’s a really good question. I know there was a large migration after Vatican II, many priests and nuns got married in the late 60’s and early 70’s. These days, those who leave have different reasons. Those I know personally left to become Anglican priests - all gay.

 

[jilly4ski]

Bishop, I don’t think people are listening to you very well. I have only been on this forum a short time, but I have been lurking for several years. This discussion goes round and round and round.

Anglicans, of course, have married clergy. It seems to work just fine. The world has not ended. People in the parish get tended to. Families get tended to.

One thing that I ponder, however, regarding the RCC: will laicized priests who left to get married be allowed back in? That might help balance the number of heterosexual priests with the number of homosexual priests already serving. I have heard that the numbers are up to 50% who are gay. My own experience (albeit in California), bears that out.

It will be very interesting to see how this unfolds.

Of course the role of the Catholic priest is very different than that of an Anglican minister. How many services does an Anglican Church have in a week? Confession times? And what is your definition of does just fine? It seems to me they are struggling with both priest/minister shortages and parishioner shortages. Even the Orthodox do not celebrate Divine liturgy every day (except at large Cathedrals and monasteries). No matter how short the homily, the priest still needs to prepare for it and plan for the rest of the Mass.

I would guess that no laicized priests will be readmitted. Most that left to get married are not in valid marriages, for those that are, there are a number of other issues at play. Firstly, I would suspect that the church will maintain the tradition that one cannot be married after ordination (and still function as a priest). Then there is the issue, if the priest left the priesthood to get married (broke his promise to his bishop) even though he knew what he was getting into. What about his other promises? It may or may not be a fair question, but it seems similar to the questions that people who have suffered from infidelity from their spouse have to face.

I will also say, that I assume the good bishop is unmarried. Where are these unmarried bishops supposed to come from. The monastic tradition in the Latin Church is suffering and has not yet experienced a revival. And the form of Latin monasticism is different than that of the Eastern tradition. I would say that we would lose a great deal, if almost all those who became bishops were from the monastic traditions, without those who lived as a secular unmarried priests.

 

[thejeopardyfan]

I would think that if future priests were allowed to marry and current ones weren’t, we’did see a mass laicization. (Which would of course be counterproductive.) I don’t see that happening.

 

[Sarcelle]

I would think that if future priests were allowed to marry and current ones weren’t, we’did see a mass laicization. (Which would of course be counterproductive.) I don’t see that happening.

There is a big difference between ordaining men who are already married and allowing priests to marry.

The Eastern churches do the former but do not allow the latter.

We must keep this distinction in mind in this discussion. This thread is about ordaining married men.

 

[thejeopardyfan]

I started this thread, so I know that’s not what it’s about.

 

[jilly4ski]

There is a big difference between ordaining men who are already married and allowing priests to marry.

The Eastern churches do the former but do not allow the latter.

We must keep this distinction in mind in this discussion. This thread is about ordaining married men.

I agree, but this is a problem those who want to ordain married men will have to answer. It is not really a “problem” now, because average Catholic priests have little exposure to the Eastern rites and churches and the handful of Anglican men who have received permission to be ordained, is such a small number and they have a lot of hoops to jump through. It is the exception and not the norm.

 

[Sarcelle]

Do these factors not affect all married couples? Dangerous neighborhoods, work/home life balance? Again, I am actually neutral on this - leaning towards yes. But I find it odd that we are so pro-family as a Church and have such a horror of priests being married. If a man wants to serve God and marry I think he should be able to do that in the Catholic Church. I actually agree it would be a nightmare in reality, but if some want to make it work, why not? Why do we panic at these everyday difficulties of married life only when the subject of married priesthood comes up? The parishes are full of families who deal with these issues all of the time.

But there are differences.

Not all married men are responsible for the needs of an entire parish. You may make the case of a doctor but in this day and age doctors no longer do house calls or are awakened at 2:00 AM at night. Medical emergencies are usually called in via 911.

Priests however are called in at odd hours and travel usually long distances to visit parishioners who live in more rural areas.

 

[Sarcelle]

I started this thread, so I know that’s not what it’s about.

Good.