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Little_Sheep
Guest
So what do y’all think will happen in Arizona on Tuesday? From what I’ve seen, it looks like more Clinton and more Trump.
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Pier
Guest
I was referring to the gas chambers, where 12 million people were killed.
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ATeNumquam
Guest
I myself have come to the same conclusion as a Catholic in a country where abortion is legal (but not completely abortion on demand). This is true of probably most countries, and the almost universal recognition is that making it illegal will inevitably drive it underground where lives of both mother and child would be endangered.
Does anyone in America believe that any pro-life candidate will be truly be able to make it illegal, even if they say they will? Does a President have that power? it seems to me that there are all sorts of things that can stymie his/her desires (e.g. Obama’s desire to change the gun laws… and please don’t let’s get on to that because it isn’t meant to be a red herring or a matter of debate here)
We don’t have political candidates here who would want to make abortion illegal part of their manifesto. I am totally for the sanctity of life from conception to death, but I vote on the basis of what seems most in accord with Gospel values in their other policies. And I don’t believe that driving women to underground abortionists when they have no religious beliefs to make them change their minds is a “good” thing.
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Path_Finder
Guest
Everyone for abortion has already been born I guess they say.
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Little_Sheep
Guest
I do appreciate you and LB and others bringing up these salient points. There was never a time in my reproductive life (now over) that I would NOT have been able to have a safe abortion and that would have been true even if Roe v. Wade was not the law of the land in which I lived. Why? Because I have always had access to enough money and enough support. But I understand that the vast majority of women in this world are not as blessed as I am and I will stand with those women until the day I die.
I myself have come to the same conclusion as a Catholic in a country where abortion is legal (but not completely abortion on demand). This is true of probably most countries, and the almost universal recognition is that making it illegal will inevitably drive it underground where lives of both mother and child would be endangered.
Does anyone in America believe that any pro-life candidate will be truly be able to make it illegal, even if they say they will? Does a President have that power? it seems to me that there are all sorts of things that can stymie his/her desires (e.g. Obama’s desire to change the gun laws… and please don’t let’s get on to that because it isn’t meant to be a red herring or a matter of debate here)
We don’t have political candidates here who would want to make abortion illegal part of their manifesto. I am totally for the sanctity of life from conception to death, but I vote on the basis of what seems most in accord with Gospel values in their other policies. And I don’t believe that driving women to underground abortionists when they have no religious beliefs to make them change their minds is a “good” thing.
As we know, a woman who does not feel prepared to have a child or does not want to have a child will not have a child. The alternatives to safe access are mutilation and death. I know some own mutilation and death stories from my own forbears.
The other point you make is equally important. Neither party has any intention to take away women’s rights, but they both use this subject to rile people up. Politics 101.
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Little_Sheep
Guest
I really don’t know anyone who is for abortion, PF, so it is difficult to respond to this statement. Everyone I know who trusts a woman to make her own health decisions understands abortion to be a complicated thing with no easy answers.
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Path_Finder
Guest
Ya’ll understand, it affects minority communities much more. It’s rather intolerable. It really carries on Margaret Sanger’s legacy.
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Monkey1976
Guest
What’s so complicated? The “health decision” is whether or not to end the new human life growing inside her - that’s all. Anything else is just looking for excuses to try and justify it.
If it’s legal to abort a child because because they’re unwanted, why is it illegal to kill an unwanted infant?
If it’s legal to abort a child because they have Down Syndrome, why is it illegal to kill an infant with Down Syndrome?
If it’s legal to abort a child because the mother “can’t afford to have a child”, why is it illegal to kill one’s infant during hard economic times?
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Pier
Guest
Well, if it was no longer legal then NOBODY would have to worry about who’s to blame for it.
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Lily_Bernans
Guest
To expand on LS’s great post, we’re bound by our Constitution here, as you probably know. It is up to our Supreme Court to determine whether or not a law is constitutional or not. In 1973, the case of Roe v. Wade came before the Supreme Court. The Court, in a 7-2 majority, upheld Roe v. Wade and declared abortion every US woman’s constitutional right. Abortion became legal in all 50 states.
I myself have come to the same conclusion as a Catholic in a country where abortion is legal (but not completely abortion on demand). This is true of probably most countries, and the almost universal recognition is that making it illegal will inevitably drive it underground where lives of both mother and child would be endangered.
Does anyone in America believe that any pro-life candidate will be truly be able to make it illegal, even if they say they will? Does a President have that power? it seems to me that there are all sorts of things that can stymie his/her desires (e.g. Obama’s desire to change the gun laws… and please don’t let’s get on to that because it isn’t meant to be a red herring or a matter of debate here)
We don’t have political candidates here who would want to make abortion illegal part of their manifesto. I am totally for the sanctity of life from conception to death, but I vote on the basis of what seems most in accord with Gospel values in their other policies. And I don’t believe that driving women to underground abortionists when they have no religious beliefs to make them change their minds is a “good” thing.
The president cannot sign an order striking down Roe v. Wade. Congress cannot legislate against it. The people who want to stop abortion want very conservative judges appointed to the SC so that maybe, some day, these conservative judges will strike down Roe v. Wade and abortion will not then be legal in the US.
There seems little chance of that happening, though. Five of the justices who upheld Roe v. Wade were conservative, and strict constructionists as opposed to liberal or fluid constructionists. Five were Republican appointed justices. So, being conservatives, and probably strict constructionists, they had to be pretty convinced that abortion on demand did not violate the US constitution. Subsequent decisions, heard under a different mix of justices, have upheld Roe v. Wade. One of the most recent was 1992, Planned Parenthood v. Casey. Again, a Republican appointed court upheld Roe v. Wade.
So, it seems that those wanting abortion on demand made illegal in the US will have to take a different path for that to happen.
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Little_Sheep
Guest
Pregnancy, abortion, motherhood and our individual beliefs about all of these things - many of us recognize these issues to be profoundly complicated and profoundly personal. I am unable to answer hypotheticals about these things because my answers would be meaningless.
I cannot possibly know everything that might inform a woman concerning her health or the things that occur in or to her body. I trust each woman to make these choices for herself because I cannot begin to imagine who else has a right to make them for her. Her government? Her neighbor? Her boss? Her pastor? Not on my watch.
I support the wisdom and justice of Roe v. Wade.
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SuperLuigi
Guest
This election will probably be about the political establishment and the usual concerns of the economy and national security. Of course, this will all come with the usual excuse-making that is destroying this country.
It’s always to hear to about declines in abortion.
But on principle, what if it was said that it’s good for rape to be legal, but rapes were down over the last seven years, and that those who are anti-rape should be comforted and grateful to use the structure of the prior comment.
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Peter_J
Guest
Fair point. However, I don’t think the number of posts on a thread is proportional to the greatness of a leader.
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SuperLuigi
Guest
It’s one of the last chances to stop the current GOP frontrunner.
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Little_Sheep
Guest
I’m not sure that I understand your comment.
That said, I think there are lots of reasons we see less abortion today, not the least of which is better education and easier access to safe, affordable contraception.
That said, I recently read an interesting article that basically says we don’t really KNOW why abortions are down because our data is haphazard and unreliable. We can truly only speculate at this stage of the game. Still, I hope it will be studied more. It would be helpful to know.
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Little_Sheep
Guest
That’s right. I think Bernie Sanders have some high hopes too, but I think those hopes will not materialize. Even if he happens to “win” AZ, which the polls are not predicting, he’s not going to win by enough to close the delegate lead that Hillary has established.
And I just noticed today that there’s no Bernie thread on CAF! Sweet Bernie. I hope he stays in, though!
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SuperLuigi
Guest
Well, I hear that a lot lately from those advocating progressive arguments. Something they should keep in mind when touting their “education and enlightenment”.
I realize that’s not happening here, but’s an interesting trend.
Contraception is not an acceptable practice in Catholic teaching, so any discussion on even considering that would require spiritual direction at the very least.
Having to choose between abortion and contraception is a false choice argument that the pro-choice crowd promotes in error.
meltzerboy
New member
Not all people or all religions equate an unborn child with a born child. I know Catholicism does, but Judaism, for example, draws distinctions.
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grotto
Guest
Very tiresome to tolerate persons who refuse to listen to their conscience and reinforce a depraved approval of murdering new life. It isn’t an unsolvable puzzle to realize that sexual intercourse is the act that God created for men and women to procreate. If a woman is determined to not become pregnant, then she must refrain from engaging in sexual intercourse.
The people who continue to distract this simple grasp of intelligence with every excuse they can possibly come up with need to be turned off. Abortion is evil murder and is not to be championed in any way. Anyone doing so is engaging in more evil. Pretense of necessity or legality is hogwash.
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SuperLuigi
Guest
There is now a Sanders thread.
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