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Lily_Bernans
Guest
Giuliani is making no sense. No one could stretch the truth that far and be sane.
- Status
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Little_Sheep
Guest
This is how I approach it as well. I was raised by wonderful Republicans and hail from one of THE most Conservative states in the Union. I always respected the Republicans I knew - they cared about things that I care about - preservation, diplomacy, strength, responsibility.
But once I became an adult, the Republican Party started to implode in front of me. They held positions that I just could not align myself with. Still, every now and again, I would find myself attracted to a moderate Republican nominee - Conservative, but reasonable and principled, a genuine statesman. These days that type of Republican is a dying breed.
Like you this election presents me with an easy decision.
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Inisfallen
Guest
I wouldn’t. The war was just plain wrong. It was not a “just war.” There is no way it met the criteria for a just war (and it didn’t even measure up to the very sensible Powell Doctrine!). A “good” outcome (something like the outcome of the first Gulf War) wouldn’t have made it any more right.
I made up my mind after then-Senator Clinton’s pro-war votes (there was more than one vote) that I would never vote for her, whether in a primary election or a general election.
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Sy_Noe
Guest
Hi LS, I’m sure you are very much aware that Hillary’s father was staunchly Republican too. I think I’ve seen where she volunteered as a teenager for Barry Goldwater but I know later she was president of her college’s Young Republicans club. If my knowledge is correct, it might have been the civil rights movement that moved her heart. I, myself, was raised in a Democratic home in a swing state. I’ve only resided in 2 states but both swing. Your own current home state’s fine statesman, Jimmy Carter, was the first President I voted for in a primary and then general election. I had the honor of meeting him on the campaign trail wayyyyyy back in the day. But yes, I agree moderates are a dying breed in the GOP for whatever reason. Democrats though still seem to find room it seems to me for someone as liberal as Bernie and for many others less so or more moderate. Or that’s how I see it anyway.
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grotto
Guest
The Democrat Party has delegates and super delegates that will over rule the votes of the people. So from the beginning of this political race, they have eliminated all other possible candidates from competing. Bernie Sanders must know this and that is a mystery why he would solicit money from the people to “run” against Hillary. Its a done deal - over and out.
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Little_Sheep
Guest
If what you say is true, then why did all the died-in-the-wool Hillary delegates rush over and vote for Obama after the people had spoken? Oh wait, I know the answer. It’s because what you say is NOT true!
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Sy_Noe
Guest
I never went that far to say never. But I understand. I recall being on the fence til the last minute until George W Bush pulled the wool over my face and had me fooled about Saddam and WMD. Which lasted only until I saw the very first bombs being dropped the very first night and then I quickly came to my senses. In 08 I supported then Sen Obama over then Sen Clinton primarily due to her war vote. I even remember then not exactly being thrilled that Obama chose her as SoS. But it’s a new day. A new election. I have supported Bernie Sanders in the primary. I’d have supported O’Malley if Bernie had not run. Or Biden over Hillary had he run. Certainly Elizabeth Warren over all of them had she run and if Bernie had not run. But it’s a new day. A new election. And I just can’t risk America’s future to Donald Trump or Ted Cruz. Not only on the foreign front but on so many other issues as well. You don’t have to agree but that’s just where I am now without reservation. Do I think SoS Clinton is the perfect candidate? Not at all. I voted for Obama 3x counting the 08 contested primary and I don’t think he is perfect. Even Bernie I don’t find perfect. Who is? But it’s overall a slam dunk for me faced with my options in Nov. Not even a close call for me.
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grotto
Guest
Excuse me. I do not understand your problem, and why are you so aggressive - what kind of proof do you feel I must offer and its not acceptable to accuse one of an outright lie! Its only acceptable when it is Hillary Clinton caught with video tape and emails!!
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grotto
Guest
Once again, its a puzzle as to why Bernie Sanders would enlist money to run a campaign for what? Hillary Clinton is the designated candidate for the office. Everyone knows that.
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Sy_Noe
Guest
Actually it is not at all true to this point. Hillary by the count I just saw has 1223 delegates not counting the supers. Ahead of Bernie and over half way there on her way to the nomination and what appears quite possibly the Presidency. And Democrats don’t do winner take all states. They give importance to the people’s votes by congressional districts so say if someone voted for Bernie but their state overall didn’t, Bernie was still able to receive delegates. And yes the GOP split their field, but SoS Clinton has received the most votes of the people of any candidate, Democrat or Republican.
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adowcday
Guest
Revisionist history by Giuliani, right up there with blaming the destruction of the U.S. economy on Barack Obama. One could more truthfully say that George Bush and the invasion of Iraq gave rise to ISIS. Overthrowing the Sunni government led by Saddam Hussein led to a Shiite takeover of government allied with Iran, which is understandable since Shiites are a majority in Iraq. This created conditions ripe for ISIS, which originated by an alliance between Sunni Islamic extremists and Ba’athists loyal to Saddam Hussein, who were angry at losing power. It was the invasion of Iraq that led to the birth of ISIS, not the exit of the U.S. from Iraq – which was negotiated by … drumroll please … George Bush.
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Sy_Noe
Guest
I find your argument somewhat strange considering there is a Stop Trump movement in the Republican Party.
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Little_Sheep
Guest
Grotto, I apologize if I was overly aggressive. It certainly was not my intent. But what you said is simply not true and the tiniest bit of honest research would have led you to the truth. I can accept that you did not tell an untruth on purpose and my response certainly did not accuse you of maliciousness.
It is tiresome to listen to people trot out things that are untrue with such confidence.
I have no problem with anyone who disagrees with the Democratic Party and its ideas. But to accuse the Democratic Party of rigging the honest votes of its constituents to fit a certain narrative feels especially unfair when that is actually what some of the Republican Party’s highest leaders wish to do this year.
Fact: the delegates go where the Democrat voters go.
I hope the Republican Party will have the same respect for its voters at the GOP Convention this summer.
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Little_Sheep
Guest
Yes, the voters know that Hillary is the best candidate for this position. That is why the voters are voting for her. That has nothing to do with delegates.
Bernie is running his Presidential campaign as his last great gift to public service. He believes in his ideas. He wants us all to move towards those ideas and care more and better for each other. He is a good man and I hope his wonderful message takes purchase within the Democrat Party. I have faith that it will.
The Democrats find themselves with a tiny wealth of excellent candidates this year. Other parties should be as fortunate.
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Little_Sheep
Guest
Sy, I have always considered Hillary to be a religious woman, a woman whose faith matters to her and informs her conduct. Just like it matters to all of us who find ourselves here on this fine forum.
I’ve read a fair few of these “highly illicit” emails! Honestly, they just make me love her more. I pray for her the same thing I pray for all of our leaders - that God guide their hearts and their hands with His steady Wisdom and His unyielding Love.
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mary_bobo
Guest
Are you forgetting the super delegates? How fair is that? The parties have different rules for selecting a nominee, and in the case of the GOP, if Trump gets to the convention without the requisite number of votes, it will go to a contested selection. After the first ballot the delegates are no longer required to vote for the nominees from their states. With Trump having such high unfavorables, this could get interesting. And as far as the Dems are concerned, they will vote for Hillary despite her high unfavorable ratings.
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Expatreprocedit
Guest
Totally agreed. What I would add is that even if Clinton bears some responsibility for the rise of ISIS, to call her a “founding member” of ISIS is the worst sort of exaggeration, calumny, and demagoguery. Giuliani is beneath contempt.
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Ridgerunner
Guest
There is no particular reason to think Saddam Hussein would have guaranteed peace in the Middle East. He started two aggressive wars himself, one of them practically a world war. He was a Sunni dictator in a majority Shiite state. It’s no more correct to say he somehow would have kept the lid on than to say that Alawite Assad, the dictator of a majority Sunni state did. That’s why both have killed so many of their own citizens.
And ISIS started over an argument among Al Quaeda leaders. Those who formed ISIS wanted to kill Shiites in Iraq, whereas Al Quaeda thought it was foolish to do it.
Before the U.S. left Iraq, the Sunni tribal leaders, the Kurds and the majority Sistani Shia all asked the U.S. to stay to guarantee the peace the allies had established. Obama was warned by them, by the Joint Chiefs and his own CIA chief that bugging out would lead to a Sunni/Shia civil war, the former backed by the Sunni oil states and the latter backed by Iran. That’s exactly what happened. Even Maliki asked the U.S. to stay. He, like the Joint Chiefs, wanted 25,000 troops to stay. Then he said he would settle for 10,000, and guarantee extraterritoriality to U.S. personnel. Obama capped it at 3,000, (fewer than Obama has there right now). Maliki knew he couldn’t sell that to the Iraqi parliament and knew 3,000 wouldn’t hold the peace. So he gave it up. Even Obama’s own CIA chief admits all of that. He further admits that Obama wasn’t serious in negotiating a status of forces agreement. Obama himself admitted it on national TV.
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Little_Sheep
Guest
All Dem delegates (super and otherwise) follow the voice of the Democratic voters. This entire line of argument (as regards the Dems) is meaninglessly rhetorical, imho.
The Republican Party’s nomination (with its first and second votes being completely removed from one another) is not something I fully understand, so I cannot comment intelligently. That said, I won’t lie - as a political junkie, it would be fascinating for me to experience (from afar) a brokered or open Republican Convention!
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grotto
Guest
Apology accepted. Your acceptance leaves a little bit to be desired though as you say I did not tell an untruth (lie) on purpose!
The information that I obtained substantiates what I said. Honesty is a must. If its tiresome for you to listen to people, why not take some time off! It may be more difficult for you than most.- Status