Hillary Clinton Thread

[sallybutler]

The fact that women were not punished “back when” doesn’t mean it was any less illogical back then not to punish someone for an involvement in a murder than it would be now. Just face it. Conservatives want their cake and to eat it too. They simply want to get away with calling abortion “murder”. But then not follow up. I don’t blame them though. I know to punish women for their involvement in such a “murder” isn’t the best optics and would cost them even more votes at the ballot box. So they try to have it both ways. It’s not much more difficult than that.

Also, I believe that doctors were generally only prosecuted if the woman died.

 

[Sy_Noe]

If you wish to punish women who have abortion, you are free to voice your view and work to change the law. Those in the pro-life camp, I can’t think of one who holds such views.

I can understand why others don’t wish to punish women for an abortion. And sure the “pro-life” camp doesn’t hold the view either. But the question still remains why? No punishment at all for being involved in what the “pro-life” side calls a “murder”? And please don’t tell me women don’t know what they are doing. I give women far more credit than that, Women know they are ending their pregnancy when they seek an abortion.

 

[sallybutler]

Sure the “pro-life” camp doesn’t hold the view but the question still remains why? No punishment at all for being involved in a “murder”? And please don’t tell me women don’t know they are choosing to end their pregnancy when they seek an abortion.

Of course they don’t. They were going in for a hang nail, when the doctor decided to perform an abortion on them.

 

[Ridgerunner]

I can understand why others don’t wish to punish women for an abortion. And sure the “pro-life” camp doesn’t hold the view either. But the question still remains why? No punishment at all for being involved in what the “pro-life” side calls a “murder”? And please don’t tell me women don’t know what they are doing. I give women far more credit than that, Women know they are ending their pregnancy when they seek an abortion.

It’s really a meaningless question, not intended to really be answered. It’s simply mocking prolife people by presenting them with the false choice the pro-abortion people want women to think they have.

 

[zz912]

I can understand why others don’t wish to punish women for an abortion. And sure the “pro-life” camp doesn’t hold the view either. But the question still remains why? No punishment at all for being involved in what the “pro-life” side calls a “murder”? And please don’t tell me women don’t know what they are doing. I give women far more credit than that, Women know they are ending their pregnancy when they seek an abortion.

This is not certain at all. There is a VERY specific reason why the pro-abortion crowd fights so hard against sonogram requirements and notification laws. They HAVE to keep women uninformed about the reality of abortion.

 

[sallybutler]

It’s really a meaningless question, not intended to really be answered. It’s simply mocking prolife people by presenting them with the false choice the pro-abortion people want women to think they have.

Sorry, I’ve been asking this question since the 70’s. Along with other questions regarding life and death. I keep looking for logical cohesion in the arguments, both for and against each issue, and between the issues. I know most people don’t want logical cohesion, but I keep hoping.

 

[Sy_Noe]

It’s really a meaningless question, not intended to really be answered. It’s simply mocking prolife people by presenting them with the false choice the pro-abortion people want women to think they have.

I don’t think people would be asking the question if they really didn’t want a meaningful answer. It just looks more and more like there simply isn’t one. Even with the great knowledge Donald Trump has, he answered Chris Matthews but then backtracked once he found out it wasn’t the answer or response given by the “pro life” movement. But then I guess not all issues have as easy answers or are as black and white as we sometimes might think.

 

[Sy_Noe]

This is not certain at all. There is a VERY specific reason why the pro-abortion crowd fights so hard against sonogram requirements and notification laws. They HAVE to keep women uninformed about the reality of abortion.

So to use Sally Butler’s example, a woman makes an appt for an abortion but thinks she is having a hang nail treated? Women have the intelligence to know that if she didn’t make the appt, a baby would be born after 9 mos.

 

[Jeanne_S]

So to use Sally Butler’s example, a woman makes an appt for an abortion but thinks she is having a hang nail treated? You honestly think a woman doesn’t know that if she didn’t make the appt, a baby would be born after 9 mos?

As Ridgerunner has very cogently explained,this is a false argument put up by the pro choice crowd to debunk the sincere efforts of the prolife people. How can any of you assume the frame of mind of a woman who procures an abortion?How many of you have ever counseled a post abortive woman?How many of you have counseled a woman considering an abortion?How ,any of you can honestly say that PP truly has the purest of intentions re a woman in crisis and her born baby?Do the offer the option of adoption as a loving choice?Do they offer ultrasounds to aid n a fully formed choice? No it is abundantly clear that choice really means abortion.Let me add,that “choice” has now extended itself into the latest stages of pregnancy,where women are being strongly encouraged by the medical community to terminate any pregnancy they determine is " incompatible with life" in the end,the primary goal of those of us who are prolife is in that very word itself.Prolife for both the baby and the mother.

 

[sallybutler]

As Ridgerunner has very cogently explained,this is a false argument put up by the pro choice crowd to debunk the sincere efforts of the prolife people. How can any of you assume the frame of mind of a woman who procures an abortion?How many of you have ever counseled a post abortive woman?How many of you have counseled a woman considering an abortion?How ,any of you can honestly say that PP truly has the purest of intentions re a woman in crisis and her born baby?Do the offer the option of adoption as a loving choice?Do they offer ultrasounds to aid n a fully formed choice? No it is abundantly clear that choice really means abortion.Let me add,that “choice” has now extended itself into the latest stages of pregnancy,where women are being strongly encouraged by the medical community to terminate any pregnancy they determine is " incompatible with life" in the end,the primary goal of those of us who are prolife is in that very word itself.Prolife for both the baby and the mother.

No, I am one of the woman who had to make the decision. My decision was to go on with the pregnancy and put the baby up for adoption. I could not bear the thought of abortion. Note, I miscarried at 12 weeks.

The reason I had to make the decision is because my husband did not want children and we messed up on the NFP. So yes, I understand inconvenience and pressure. But I also understand personal responsibility for my sins. If I had of had an abortion, I would have considered myself a murderer, the doctor an accomplice. Heck, I still wonder if I did something that caused the miscarriage.

 

[JimG]

Pro-Life Leaders Say Abortionists Should be Punished, Not their Women Victims

“The pro-life movement, from the first feminists like Susan B. Anthony and Elizabeth Cady Stanton, has always been led by women. Today, every major pro-life activist organization in the United States is led by a woman. Indeed, the most powerful pro-life lobbying group in Washington is now the Susan B. Anthony List, a group of women dedicated to electing pro-life women. It has been a matter of pro-life orthodoxy for decades that women are abortion’s second victims.”’

–Why Serious Pro-Lifers don’t want to punish women.

 

[stinkcat_14]

It’s really a meaningless question, not intended to really be answered. It’s simply mocking prolife people by presenting them with the false choice the pro-abortion people want women to think they have.

Actually it is not a meaningless question, it is a very relevant question. If life is to be protected, then it is certainly reasonable to believe that those who arrange the taking of life should be punished. To believe such does not mean that someone is not prolife.

 

[JimG]

The pro-life movement has never been about punishing women, and it never will be. It is about preventing abortion, giving women alternatives to abortion, providing counseling and healing to women suffering post abortion grief. It has engendered post-abortion ministries for women. It has engendered counseling programs for pregnant women to give them support and alternatives to abortion. Punishing women has nothing to do with the mission of the pro-life movement. Not from the beginning. Not now. Before 1973 state laws limiting abortion applied to abortionists—those who performed abortions, not to women. Any advocacy of punishing women is a pro-abortion talking point, not a pro-life position.

 

[stinkcat_14]

The pro-life movement has never been about punishing women, and it never will be. It is about preventing abortion, giving women alternatives to abortion, providing counseling and healing to women suffering post abortion grief. It has engendered post-abortion ministries for women. It has engendered counseling programs for pregnant to give them support and alternatives to abortion. Punishing women has nothing to do with the mission of the pro-life movement. Not from the beginning. Not now. Before 1973 state laws limiting abortion applied to abortionists—those who performed abortions, not to women. Any advocacy of punishing women is a pro-abortion talking point, not a pro-life position.

There is no monolithic entity called the pro-life movement. It is a loose organization of people and groups who believe that life should be protected. Believing that accessories to murder should be punished is consistent with being pro-life.

 

[JimG]

There is no monolithic entity called the pro-life movement. It is a loose organization of people and groups who believe that life should be protected. Believing that accessories to murder should be punished is consistent with being pro-life.

And yet no pro-life organization that I can think of, from American Life League to March for Life to the National Right to Life Committee, has advocated for punishing women. Many of them run ministries for post-abortive women. Susan B. Anthony opposed abortion and considered women its victims.

“No pro-lifer would ever want to punish a woman who has chosen abortion,” said Jeanne Mancini, president of the March for Life Education and Defense Fund, adding that “this is against the very nature of what we are about.”

“The pro-life position is that you protect both the baby and her mother from a procedure that is destructive of both,” said Fr. Frank Pavone, national director*of Priests for Life.

 

[Luigi_Daniele]

And yet no pro-life organization that I can think of, from American Life League to March for Life to the National Right to Life Committee, has advocated for punishing women. Many of them run ministries for post-abortive women. Susan B. Anthony opposed abortion and considered women its victims.

1. It was a stupid hypothetical question
2. Trump was stupid to answer it
3. HRC has never met an abortion that she doesn’t like, so
4. no Catholic can vote for her. Or Bernie.

Just to recap

 

[JimG]

1. It was a stupid hypothetical question
2. Trump was stupid to answer it
3. HRC has never met an abortion that she doesn’t like, so
4. no Catholic can vote for her. Or Bernie.

Just to recap

Yes. Well, it was Chris Matthews for Pete’s sake! Forwarned should have been forearmed.

 

[Luigi_Daniele]

Yes. Well, it was Chris Matthews for Pete’s sake! Forwarned should have been forearmed.

Agree completely. Trump has to realize that because he is a Republican there are shows he just can’t do. Simple as that.

 

[stinkcat_14]

And yet no pro-life organization that I can think of, from American Life League to March for Life to the National Right to Life Committee, has advocated for punishing women. Many of them run ministries for post-abortive women. Susan B. Anthony opposed abortion and considered women its victims.

“No pro-lifer would ever want to punish a woman who has chosen abortion,” said Jeanne Mancini, president of the March for Life Education and Defense Fund, adding that “this is against the very nature of what we are about.”

“The pro-life position is that you protect both the baby and her mother from a procedure that is destructive of both,” said Fr. Frank Pavone, national director*of Priests for Life.

And that in my opinion is a problem. If you respect life, those who take life or arrange to have life taken ought to be punished. There is no coherent reason for not punishing those who take life, except for the fact that it is not politically expedient.

 

[Luigi_Daniele]

And that in my opinion is a problem. If you respect life, those who take life or arrange to have life taken ought to be punished. There is no coherent reason for not punishing those who take life, except for the fact that it is not politically expedient.

As a matter of law, absolutely.

As a matter of mercy, no. Particularly if they are below the age of majority.

Now, women who have multiple abortions are a different matter.