Hillary Clinton Thread

  • Thread starter Thread starter Cider
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
I would note that pro-abortion groups lied about illegal abortion statistics prior to Roe v Wade. They lied about them in oder to get abortion legalized. This was admitted by Dr. Bernard Nathanson, in his book “Aborting America.” He remained a firm abortion advocate and abortionist for many years, performing over 60,000 abortions. But he began to have doubts, rethinking his pro-choice position. Starting out as a “Jewish atheist,” he ended as a Catholic anti-abortion activist. “I know every facet of abortion,” he wrote. “I am one of those who helped usher in this barbaric age.”

His obituary is here:
washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/02/22/AR2011022206507.html
 
JimG said:
I would note that pro-abortion groups lied about illegal abortion statistics prior to Roe v Wade. They lied about them in oder to get abortion legalized. This was admitted by Dr. Bernard Nathanson, in his book “Aborting America.” He remained a firm abortion advocate and abortionist for many years, performing over 60,000 abortions. But he began to have doubts, rethinking his pro-choice position. Starting out as a “Jewish atheist,” he ended as a Catholic anti-abortion activist. “I know every facet of abortion,” he wrote. “I am one of those who helped usher in this barbaric age.”

His obituary is here:
washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/02/22/AR2011022206507.html
Click to expand...
They lied saying they were higher or lower?
 
JimG said:
Under canon law, abortion is a sin, and also a crime. The two categories are not coterminous. It is the canonical crime of abortion which incurs automatic excommunication. Canon lawyer Dr. Edward Peters has said that he doubts that any woman has incurred automatic excommunication for the sin of abortion.

“The pope’s statement seems to assume that the sin of abortion and the crime of abortion are concomitant realities. I, however, and I’ll wager nearly all other experts, hold sin to be distinguishable from crime, and that this crime is rarely, if ever, committed by women (again, as opposed to abortionists).”

–Dr. Edward Peters
Source
Click to expand...
While Dr Peters may not be sure, these sites are.

catholicherald.com/stories/Straight-Answers-Automatic-Excommunication-for-Those-Who-Procure-Abortion,6743
catholiccourier.com/commentary/other-columnists/is-one-excommunicated-after-having-an-abortion/
catholic.com/quickquestions/apart-from-abortion-are-there-other-sins-that-incur-automatic-excommunication
ewtn.com/expert/answers/abortio2.htm

The only out is that she didn’t know she would be excommunicated. If she didn’t know, maybe the problem of abortion needs to be blamed on the Church(or churches) for not educating people better.
 
sallybutler said:
While Dr Peters may not be sure, these sites are.

catholicherald.com/stories/Straight-Answers-Automatic-Excommunication-for-Those-Who-Procure-Abortion,6743
catholiccourier.com/commentary/other-columnists/is-one-excommunicated-after-having-an-abortion/
catholic.com/quickquestions/apart-from-abortion-are-there-other-sins-that-incur-automatic-excommunication
ewtn.com/expert/answers/abortio2.htm

The only out is that she didn’t know she would be excommunicated. If she didn’t know, maybe the problem of abortion needs to be blamed on the Church(or churches) for not educating people better.
Click to expand...
I noted this from the EWTN reply:

NOTE WELL To actually incur the excommunication one must know that it is an excommunicable offense at the time of the abortion. Canon 1323 provides that the following do not incur a sanction, those who are not yet 16, are unaware of a law, do not advert to it, or are in error about its scope, were forced or had an unforeseeable accident, acted out of grave fear, or who lacked the use of reason (except culpably, as by drunkenness). Thus a woman forced by an abusive husband to have an abortion would not incur an excommunication, for instance, whereas someone culpably under the influence of drugs or alcohol would (canon 1325).

The Catholic.com reply has this note:

“No one is automatically excommunicated for any offense if, without any fault of his own, he was unaware that he was violating a law (CIC 1323:2) or that a penalty was attached to the law (CIC 1324:1:9). The same applies if one was a minor, had the imperfect use of reason, was forced through grave or relatively grave fear, was forced through serious inconvenience, or in certain other circumstances (CIC 1324).”
 
JimG said:
They wanted to make it appear that there were large numbers of illegal abortions, so they simply fabricated the high numbers.
Click to expand...
Then I don’t understand why we didn’t see a large drop in births once abortion became legal.
 
Crossbones said:
Then I don’t understand why we didn’t see a large drop in births once abortion became legal.
Click to expand...
I don’t know. I doubt that abortion skyrocketed overnight. The sexual revolution advanced contraception, which had been opposed by both Catholic and Protestant churches for a long time. I think that the legalization of abortion provided backup birth control, which enabled a great deal more sexual license, which in turn led to more out of wedlock pregnancies, which led to more abortion. But that’s just speculation.
 
JimG said:
I don’t know. I doubt that abortion skyrocketed overnight. The sexual revolution advanced contraception, which had been opposed by both Catholic and Protestant churches for a long time. I think that the legalization of abortion provided backup birth control, which enabled a great deal more sexual license, which in turn led to more out of wedlock pregnancies, which led to more abortion. But that’s just speculation.
Click to expand...
I’m suggesting that either

a) a lot of people depending on birth control instead used abortion as birth control.

or

b) the illegal abortion rate was high and legalizing abortion did not really drastically change the number of abortions.
 
JimG said:
I noted this from the EWTN reply:

NOTE WELL To actually incur the excommunication one must know that it is an excommunicable offense at the time of the abortion. Canon 1323 provides that the following do not incur a sanction, those who are not yet 16, are unaware of a law, do not advert to it, or are in error about its scope, were forced or had an unforeseeable accident, acted out of grave fear, or who lacked the use of reason (except culpably, as by drunkenness). Thus a woman forced by an abusive husband to have an abortion would not incur an excommunication, for instance, whereas someone culpably under the influence of drugs or alcohol would (canon 1325).

The Catholic.com reply has this note:

“No one is automatically excommunicated for any offense if, without any fault of his own, he was unaware that he was violating a law (CIC 1323:2) or that a penalty was attached to the law (CIC 1324:1:9). The same applies if one was a minor, had the imperfect use of reason, was forced through grave or relatively grave fear, was forced through serious inconvenience, or in certain other circumstances (CIC 1324).”
Click to expand...
Which is why I made the point that we Catholics and the Church need to do better at teaching our own. However, while many Catholics may not know it is an excommunicable offense, if they haven’t been told it is murder (Whether they agree is a different question) means they have been living in a cave.

This discussion has been very enlightening for me. While I believe abortion is murder and all involved are culpable and in need of penance and forgiveness, I have discovered I am in a small minority. I think abortions are as bad as suicides. Both are saying you don’t trust God in the situation. However abortion may be worse as you kill someone else AND you involve someone else in your sin.

P.S. I hate auto correct.
 
Sanders had a great night last night in Wisconsin, but it’s still difficult to see a way for him to catch up to Clinton’s commanding lead, both in popular vote and in delegates. The delegate situation as regards the Democratic Party still confuses a lot of people, I think, but the bottom line is that the delegates will follow the popular vote. I watched it happen in 2008 and I can certainly imagine it happening in 2016.

Still, we now turn back towards states that favor former Secretary of State Clinton and she seems very confident as she heads towards the NY polls…cnn.com/2016/04/06/politics/hillary-clinton-bernie-sanders-chris-cuomo/index.html

It would be an enormous loss to her campaign if she were unable to take New York and I am sure Sanders will continue to nip at her heels. That’s good for the Party as a whole, I believe.

This year, the Republican race is so much more interesting than the Democratic race that the media pays much more attention to the former!
 
Sy_Noe said:
Huh? Where on earth did that come from? Liberals don’t want to punish women for not breaking the law. We aren’t the ones crying to make abortion illegal. What we don’t understand is why conservatives insist on calling abortion murder and want it outlawed but then if it were to become murder under the law, conservatives don’t want to punish the women for choosing to be involved in a murder. Seems anti-choice people just want it both ways and the inconsistency is deafening. So if a woman hands her car keys over to someone who is willing to drive her vehicle into a lake with her child strapped into the backseat to drown her child, I guess conservatives are willing to let that woman off the hook too.
Click to expand...
It seems quite clear by this point that I can’t do anything to stop the demagoguery on this forum (if you want to call it a forum) but I guess I still have the power to “boycott” it by not responding to your posts. Good day.
 
Little_Sheep said:
Sanders had a great night last night in Wisconsin, but it’s still difficult to see a way for him to catch up to Clinton’s commanding lead, both in popular vote and in delegates. The delegate situation as regards the Democratic Party still confuses a lot of people, I think, but the bottom line is that the delegates will follow the popular vote. I watched it happen in 2008 and I can certainly imagine it happening in 2016.

Still, we now turn back towards states that favor former Secretary of State Clinton and she seems very confident as she heads towards the NY polls…cnn.com/2016/04/06/politics/hillary-clinton-bernie-sanders-chris-cuomo/index.html

It would be an enormous loss to her campaign if she were unable to take New York and I am sure Sanders will continue to nip at her heels. That’s good for the Party as a whole, I believe.

This year, the Republican race is so much more interesting than the Democratic race that the media pays much more attention to the former!
Click to expand...
I can’t see Sanders catching Clinton, either, however he has the momentum now. I do think she will win NY, PA, and CA, though and that should put her over the top. Once she does reach her magic number, I believe many Sanders super delegates will switch their allegiance to Clinton.

Whatever happens, the conventions, especially, the Republican, as you pointed out, will be very interesting! 🙂
 
Lily_Bernans said:
I can’t see Sanders catching Clinton, either, however he has the momentum now. I do think she will win NY, PA, and CA, though and that should put her over the top. Once she does reach her magic number, I believe many Sanders super delegates will switch their allegiance to Clinton.

Whatever happens, the conventions, especially, the Republican, as you pointed out, will be very interesting! 🙂
Click to expand...
Ah well, two more boring weeks! Haha!
 
Lily_Bernans said:
He said exactly, almost word-for-word, something I said in an earlier post:

“This doesn’t excuse the woman’s wrongdoing; rather, it is the same principle by which the state grants immunity to a small-time drug user in exchange for information leading to a big-time drug dealer.”

The woman is a murderer as well, just one who has been granted immunity so she will give up the name of the abortionist.
Click to expand...
Did he authorize you to put words in his mouth? I don’t recall him saying that the abortionist and the mother are “murderers”.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top