L
Lily_Bernans
Guest
Yes, it is. Very much so. I grew up in a Carmelite cloister, and I’m a professor of theology.
- Status
S
Sy_Noe
Guest
Since this has already been discussed on the Democratic Primary thread, I won’t bother here. Although I realize threads overlap.
R
Ridgerunner
Guest
Do any Catholics genuinely believe that Pope Francis is saying we should have so little regard for the teachings of the Church that we should not “blindly follow” prohibitions against engaging in intrinsic evils? If we do not have an obligation to “blindly” avoid committing intrinsic evils, then we have no obligations at all.
If so (and I don’t for a minute think that’s his meaning) then the Church itself is not “Catholic”, has no meaning, and every man is a “non-denominational” unto himself.
I do recognize that many Catholics, unfortunately, see Church teachings as “suggestions only”. But I do not think the Pope is one of that number.
L
Lily_Bernans
Guest
He changed his mind on that one. Seems both candidates were just a little frustrated the other day. It happens, in both parties:
marketwatch.com/story/sanders-backtracks-says-of-course-clinton-is-qualified-to-be-president-2016-04-08
P
Padres1969
Guest
Posted this in the Sanders thread too. Latest Field Poll in California shows Hillary’s lead over Sanders has shrunk to a paltry 6% over the last few months (down from an opening lead of 63% originally). And California allows non-partisan voters to vote in the Democratic primary (a voter category that has helped Sanders more than Clinton).
sfgate.com/bayarea/article/California-primary-up-for-grabs-as-Clinton-s-7235299.php
As a Californian at the very least I’m excited our primary actually matters for once. Usually we’re just a rubber stamp for the eventual nominee.
sfgate.com/bayarea/article/California-primary-up-for-grabs-as-Clinton-s-7235299.php
As a Californian at the very least I’m excited our primary actually matters for once. Usually we’re just a rubber stamp for the eventual nominee.
L
Lily_Bernans
Guest
I don’t think anyone is saying we should ignore dogma, not at all. I think he is just suggesting we think things through carefully rather than follow blindly, make sure we understand. And that’s just my interpretation, I can speak for no one but myself.
L
Lily_Bernans
Guest
You shouldn’t vote so late out there! LOL I love California, really.Posted this in the Sanders thread too. Latest Field Poll in California shows Hillary’s lead over Sanders has shrunk to a paltry 6% over the last few months (down from an opening lead of 63% originally). And California allows non-partisan voters to vote in the Democratic primary (a voter category that has helped Sanders more than Clinton).
sfgate.com/bayarea/article/California-primary-up-for-grabs-as-Clinton-s-7235299.php
As a Californian at the very least I’m excited our primary actually matters for once. Usually we’re just a rubber stamp for the eventual nominee.
P
Padres1969
Guest
We tried moving earlier about a decade back. It didn’t go over well so we fell back to our traditional end of the primary season spot on the calendar. Frankly I liked when we were trend setters rather than rubber stampers. That’s why this particular development excites me. We could really upset both apple carts this time around given how much proverbial weight we throw around.
L
Little_Sheep
Guest
The Pope’s Exhortation published today seems to have a lot to say about primacy of individual primacy of conscience as well. I haven’t read the entire thing yet, but it is beautifully written.
L
Lily_Bernans
Guest
You have so many delegates, you are a make-it-or-break-it state at times. During the general, no one can go to bed until the California results come in. Well, usually not.
R
Ridgerunner
Guest
It would probably be well to read it thoroughly. I very much doubt he truly is declaring the absolute primacy of conscience. If so, then not even the Ten Commandments mean anything. The concept is Protestant to the core. And, unfortunately, “conscience” is sometimes simply the “will”, which has overridden one’s acceptance of objective truth.
The Pope’s Exhortation published today seems to have a lot to say about primacy of individual primacy of conscience as well. I haven’t read the entire thing yet, but it is beautifully written.
It truly unfortunate that, in our time, catechesis on moral issues is so lacking, sometimes even deceptive, leading to sin. . “…it would be better for him to tie a millstone around his neck and cast himself into the sea than to scandalize one of my little ones…”
I recall reading some historian, Alistair Cooke, perhaps, who, in a commentary on the High Middle Ages and Renaissance, opined that, compared to people in those times, moderns “neither sin well nor repent well”. We don’t sin well inasmuch as we don’t admit we’re sinning. We find all kinds of ways to justify our behavior or cavil and modify it a bit in order to convince ourselves that we’re not sinning. As one consequence, we don’t repent well either, to the degree we repent at all.
What is an easier thing to simply admit our wrongs, confess and repent than to go through the mental gyrations required to rationalize bad behavior. What a more merciful thing to encourage the former over the latter.
When it comes to voting for abortion promoters like Hillary Clinton, we have been given moral guidance; that we are obliged in conscience not to do it other than to avoid a proportionate evil; that is, an intrinsic evil of equal weight, scope, and seriousness.
Generally speaking, those who wish to support the abortion supporters, don’t even try to come up with truly proportionate evils they believe are to be avoided by voting for the abortion supporter. It would not be out of the way to suggest that in such instances, they know their reasons are not proportionate and do not want to put them to the test of scrutiny.
But as soon as you come up with a credible source saying Pope Francis approves of voting for abortion-supporting politicians for non-proportionate reasons, you can supply us with it.
I’ll not wait, because I know it can’t be done. But it is election season, and so I think most who have been on here awhile are prepared to see the inundation of misinterpretations that we’re bound to see in order to justify participation in intrinsic evil.
L
Little_Sheep
Guest
I hope to finish a first reading today. I do not believe that Pope Francis (or anyone who seriously considers such issues) understands primacy of conscience to mean “do whatever you want - it’s all good.”
When you say that you find catechesis on moral issues to be lacking, do you mean catechesis in the Catholic Church? Catechesis in TEC seems even stronger today than it was decades ago - and even then, it was good. I cannot speak to what it might be like in the Catholic Church, of course, but I have heard other Catholics make similar statements.
I truly do not know if Francis has said anything about who Catholics can and can’t vote for. I don’t think he has, but please educate me if I have missed something he might have said. He certainly doesn’t strike me as the type of Shepherd who would tell his sheep what lever to pull in the ballot box.
It seems that, in the US, Catholics vote along the lines of non-Catholics. I do know some Catholics who say that Catholics have to vote a certain way based on certain issues and I know some Catholics who say Catholics are not thusly restricted. I have no dog in that
particular hunt. I respect everyone’s vote for whatever reason.
J
JimG
Guest
From a moral theology standpoint, conscience is simply the application of the human intellect to specific actions and basing its judgments on true precepts of the moral law. To have a correctly formed conscience, one must first understand the moral law, and not have erroneous opinions about right and wrong.
L
Little_Sheep
Guest
But different people, religions, cultures have different views of the moral law, no?
Now, Pope Francis, of course, is talking about Catholic moral law and that makes sense.
However, one thing that I have truly learned during my time at this fine forum and in real life with my own Catholic friends is that precise Catholic moral teaching is often a difficult thing to pin down. Honestly, Catholics seem to have at least as many questions and opinions on what is right and what is wrong as their Protestant brethren!
As a Protestant, I actually find that comforting.
L
Lily_Bernans
Guest
Yes, but there are gray areas. I have two textbooks here on Catholic bioethics. Both are written by PhDs, who are very well known theologians and ethicists. One says that if a nurse works for an abortionist and actually operates the suction machine, she is as guilty as the doctor even if she doesn’t believe in abortion. The other says as long as she doesn’t believe in abortion, she is only guilty of remote material cooperation with evil. Who is right? I could see the first being, since the nurse is actually doing something to cause the abortion, but I can’t see the second being right.
If theologians and ethicists can’t agree, it’s going to be even more complicated for the average Catholic, even though he or she may be quite educated.
J
JimG
Guest
If the nurse “doesn’t believe in abortion,” why would she be working at an abortion clinic?
Now, if she does not believe that abortion is wrong, then her conscience is malformed. She is making a wrong judgment about an action. I doubt one could be subjectively culpable for a sincerely held wrong judgment. But she should try to correctly inform her conscience.
L
Lily_Bernans
Guest
The book said, “if she couldn’t find another job,” however I can’t see any scenario where a nurse couldn’t find another job. She might have to take a pay cut, but that would be better than operating a suction machine at an abortion clinic. I think one day of that would cause nightmares for life for someone who doesn’t believe in abortion. Frankly, I’d rather be on welfare than operate a suction machine at an abortion clinic. I don’t know that I could force myself to do it.
I thought it was a strange, and bad, example, especially to give to students who are just beginning to learn Catholic bioethics, but I don’t choose the textbooks. I don’t have that kind of clout yet.
G
grotto
Guest
So certain and definite are the beloved of Hillary! Too bad, all the little sweet notes and classified information between the nominee and her secret Sid are going to be part of the INVESTIGATION! My computer picked up a virus from logging into Hillary’s emails but until that happened I was able to read several emails in my judgement that were information at a level that was valuable to our country’s enemies! They were between Hillary and Sweet Sid.
Now we learn what anyone with half a brain could figure out is that her emails were hacked!
Let’s have a big round of applause for the Hacker that turned himself in to the FBI!
So much for Hillary conducting a campaign with dignity - she wouldn’t know dignity if she fell over it!
J
JimG
Guest
I agree, it’s a very bad example to use a proposed scenario. It practically asks the students to come up with a rationale for cooperating with abortion.
G
grotto
Guest
It seems you mentioned this in a post once before so, may I ask, how does it happen that a child would/could grow up in a Carmelite cloister community?
- Status