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Sophie_Lawrence
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Would you share the title of this bioethics textbook that claims actually assisting in an abortion is remote cooperation with evil? Would it by chance carry an imprimatur or nihil obstat?
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Ridgerunner
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One needs to be very suspicious of people who call themselves ethicists or theologians nowadays. One needs to check them out very carefully before so much as reading them, let alone believing what they say. One needs to remember that Richard McBrien taught theology at Notre Dame and wrote 25 books, claiming to be a Catholic theologian, but was an extreme dissident from the teachings of the Church. Unfortunately, he taught a lot of students and a lot of people undoubtedly read his books.
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Ridgerunner
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It’s not difficult to pin down. Nor is it difficult to imagine difficulties in pinning it down if one doesn’t accept it to begin with or wants to temporize with it.But different people, religions, cultures have different views of the moral law, no?
Now, Pope Francis, of course, is talking about Catholic moral law and that makes sense.
However, one thing that I have truly learned during my time at this fine forum and in real life with my own Catholic friends is that precise Catholic moral teaching is often a difficult thing to pin down. Honestly, Catholics seem to have at least as many questions and opinions on what is right and what is wrong as their Protestant brethren!
As a Protestant, I actually find that comforting.
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Ridgerunner
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So, the present catechesis, now stronger as you say, says homosexual marriage is acceptable in the Episcopal church, including among Episcopal clergy? Was it weaker when it didn’t accept that? Was it weaker when it absolutely condemned abortion than it is now when it accepts abortion in cases of incest, fetal deformity or physical or mental health of the mother? (abortion on demand)
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Lily_Bernans
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It’s Medical Ethics: Sources of Catholic Teaching by Patrick D. O’Roarke, O.P. and Kevin J. Boyle
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Lily_Bernans
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I think it’s a terrible example.
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Little_Sheep
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TEC understands abortion to be a serious matter. In no way shape or form do we preach or teach “abortion on demand.” I do not denigrate and slander your denomination. I would appreciate the same charity in return. It’s kind if sad, actually. I originally came to CAF with at least some openness to considering a conversion. That notion was clubbed out of me right quick by the aggressive hostility displayed towards me time and again. Don’t take that personally, RR. I just happen to be responding to your post.
In any event, if you even care all that much -
I am 50 now. My personal catechesis was a slow steady drip of Church and 16 years of TEC schools. Said catechesis is the formation of my life and I am deeply grateful for it. It has served me well and led me more deeply into a Holy relationship with God.
As for abortion and homosexuality - those are two tiny issues and I do not think about them much when I consider my own moral formation. I have never considered homosexuality to be a sin, so I treat homosexuals like I treat all of God’s children. Abortion as ‘right or wrong’ is clearly a mystery with no answer. In such a case, it seems prudent to keep my own nose out of a woman’s gynecological life unless she invites me into it.
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Ridgerunner
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Looks like O’Roarke teaches at St. Louis University. No surprise.
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Lily_Bernans
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I just know he taught at Loyola. I’m surprised the college I work at uses it because it’s so conservative and traditional. The college, not the book.
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Ridgerunner
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My question was whether you consider the changes in the Episcopal church’s view of abortion and homosexual marriage to represent a strengthening of its catechesis or not.
I think you have answered it. As you have learned, Catholicism is not given to doctrinal change. Some find that disconcerting, and if they do, then they have a decision to make.
I do not wish or even intend to be unkind to you. But when a protestant comes onto a Catholic site and announces himself a supporter of legal abortion-on-demand and the politicians who promote it, he can’t really complain if he is challenged on it. I’m sure if I went on a Southern Baptist site and announced that I don’t buy “once saved always saved”, I would be challenged on it. I would expect it, and wouldn’t even do it if I didn’t intend to be challenged in my own beliefs concerning the subject matter.
And how is “unequivocal opposition to any … action … that [would] abridge the right of a woman to reach an informed decision about the termination of her pregnancy, or that would limit the access of a woman to a safe means of acting upon her decision.” (resolution of the 71st General Session) different from supporting abortion on demand?
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Peter_J
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Personally I’m troubled by how many people “follow their conscience” and then vote for Donald Trump, Hillary Clinton, or Bernie Sanders. But then, I don’t doubt that it would be worse if people didn’t follow their consciences.
The Pope’s Exhortation published today seems to have a lot to say about primacy of individual primacy of conscience as well. I haven’t read the entire thing yet, but it is beautifully written.
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Sophie_Lawrence
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It’s available on Amazon. I looked it up because you got me curious.
It refers to cooperation with abortion on page 13.
It says that the nurse assisting in an abortion with the suction machine is committing “Immediate material cooperation”
The person who cuts the lawn for the abortion clinic is providing “mediate material cooperation” and this type of work should be rejected.
Also, FYI, I don’t know much about Dr. O’Roarke, but he seems to have been one of the signatories to the amicus brief in support of Hobby Lobby.
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Sophie_Lawrence
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I just wanted to update regarding Hobby Lobby. It might not be the same gentleman. O’Roarke passed away in 2012.
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Lily_Bernans
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I saw that in the book last night, too, and I directed my students to buy their copy from Amazon since it’s significantly less expensive than from our book vendor.
It’s much later in the book that something is written about working in abortion clinics that surprised me, but I didn’t continue to look for it. In light of what’s on page 13, maybe it’s a misprint or maybe I’m thinking of the wrong book. I’ve read four just this week. For some reason the developer of the course decided to use four different books. Granted, two are very short and cover only one topic. I certainly don’t want to say something about the book’s authors that isn’t true.
I didn’t think Fr. O’Rourke wrote an amicus brief regarding Hobby Lobby, though. I don’t think he’s an attorney. But I’m not certain.
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Lily_Bernans
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Here’s the obituary for the author of the book:
stritch.luc.edu/newswire/news/rev-kevin-orourke-seminal-figure-catholic-health-care-ethics-dies-85
Given who he was, I must be thinking of the wrong book, or it must be a misprint. I certainly don’t want to attribute something to someone he didn’t say. It seems this priest would be staunchly against women working in abortion clinics.
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grotto
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Regarding Hillary, yesterday was email Friday so the Benghazi Committee were in receipt of another load (emails) - requested over 1 year ago. 
(not really!) The State Department has lots of experience in holding back incriminating evidence. 
Evidence of hacking Hillary’s emails by a foreign entity and the identity of the hacker has been uncovered. I hope to see more on the nightly news.
(not really!) The State Department has lots of experience in holding back incriminating evidence. Evidence of hacking Hillary’s emails by a foreign entity and the identity of the hacker has been uncovered. I hope to see more on the nightly news.
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Ridgerunner
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Interesting. Sometimes actually reading something is enlightening.
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Lily_Bernans
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I agree, but one has to read the WHOLE thing.
She didn’t read far enough into the book. Page 13 contains only introductory material.
I HAVE the actual book and have read it all.
Fr; O’Rourke couldn’t have written anything regarding Hobby Lobby - he died in March 2012.
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Ridgerunner
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Lily_Bernans
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Okay. I"m willing to say it’s probably a misprint further back, though. I want to give the authors the benefit of the doubt.
Back to Hillary. She’s still leading in New York, but Sanders keeps gaining, and he’s gaining in California. That university professor who said Sanders would be the next president may not be wrong as unbelievable as it seemed back when he said it.
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