Hillary Clinton urges Britain to remain in the European Union

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I’m not a big fan of the EU, for multiple reasons, but I agree with you. Both Clinton (as a private citizen with some small experience in foreign affairs) and Obama (in his official position as U.S. head of state) have the right to express their opinions recommending that the UK stay in the EU.

(And, conversely, both British Prime Minister Cameron and the British people also have the right to tell Obama and Clinton to hang their opinions on their respective beaks 😛 )
Prime Minister Cameron had a face like a Cheshire cat sucking cream when Obama was voicing his opposition to Brexit. He has staked his political fortunes on this campaign and renegotiation, so he for one is not going to be telling Obama and Clinton to “hang” it on their beaks 😃
 
Prime Minister Cameron had a face like a Cheshire cat sucking cream when Obama was voicing his opposition to Brexit. He has staked his political fortunes on this campaign and renegotiation, so he for one is not going to be telling Obama and Clinton to “hang” it on their beaks 😃
Yeah, the three of them are all sort of on the same side. I was speaking Hypothetically, which is not an easy language to master (bouncing of one of my comments on another thread 😃 ).
 
I don’t know what Britain’s alternatives are if it no longer has the trading preferences which I understand the EU gives. For whatever reason, some Brits want out of it.
A NZ journalist visiting the UK was talking to some politician there (sorry, dunno who) about the Brexit issue. He said “If we leave the EU, we might need you lads (i.e. NZ, former colony) again”.
The journalist refrained from saying “Sorry, we’ve moved on”.
 
A NZ journalist visiting the UK was talking to some politician there (sorry, dunno who) about the Brexit issue. He said “If we leave the EU, we might need you lads (i.e. NZ, former colony) again”.
The journalist refrained from saying “Sorry, we’ve moved on”.
😃

That’s what gets me about the Brexiters: they decry Britain being partly ruled from Brussels by the EU and fellow members states, yet they’d love to return to a colonial past in which Britain rules everybody else. Hypocrisy much?
 
I did not no every detail, and other information could change my opinion. But the mere fact that Hillary and Obama both want it seems to me heavy evidence it would not be a good thing.
lol! I agree 100%!
 
But for those who hold onto the past, some people still cannot stomach the idea that Britain has gone from global hegemon to a “mere” member state of a European Union, even if it is set to become perhaps the most populous and economically productive member state by 2040.
I think you’re overdoing the ‘Empire’ business and the experience of that generation - it’s more that they do remember when the UK was outside the emerging EU and appeared to be more in control of its destiny. It’s the experience of being young in the 50s/60s that made them, not the Raj.

The fact that the situation then was becoming more and more untenable - economically and socially - is what they need to be reminded of, I doubt they’ll have forgotten the semi-permanent financial and industrial crisis.
 
I think you’re overdoing the ‘Empire’ business and the experience of that generation - it’s more that they do remember when the UK was outside the emerging EU and appeared to be more in control of its destiny. It’s the experience of being young in the 50s/60s that made them, not the Raj.

The fact that the situation then was becoming more and more untenable - economically and socially - is what they need to be reminded of, I doubt they’ll have forgotten the semi-permanent financial and industrial crisis.
Very good point, being young in an era when the country seemed more in control of its destiny.

Yet my grandpa was a soldier at the time of Suez and vividly remembers getting his jags and being about to go off to Egypt when the Yanks called it quits over the Naser issue. Even then, we were hardly a country in command of our destiny, eh?

Yes, if you look at a graph of our GDP in that period, we really where becoming the sick man if Europe. After we joined the EEC, growth went up considerably with time through our access to the market.

That said, do you not think that some harbour a nostalgia for the days when Britain was big and mighty and meant something (in their eyes)? All this talk of pro-EU people talking down Britain, it’s greatness, vitality yada-yada…and Boris’ insane quip that Obama 's Kenyan ancestry had to do with an ancestral dislike of the British Empire that led him to be pro-EU and against Brexit…OK Boris, that’s just odd…

I’ve heard them say it myself about the days when Britain meant something globally, even though it’s empire and economy were declining - majorly.
 
I honestly doubt that Britain will leave the European Union but then again, if they do, that is their choice and not Hillary Clinton’s. We Americans need to be staying out of Europe’s business and Europe should not get involved in our business.
Exactly.
I don’t think Pres. Obama should have commented on the Brexit much less a candidate. Any US pol should just go with some neutral statement that we’ll still be best buddies with the UK no matter what.
 
That said, do you not think that some harbour a nostalgia for the days when Britain was big and mighty and meant something (in their eyes)? All this talk of pro-EU people talking down Britain, it’s greatness, vitality yada-yada…and Boris’ insane quip that Obama 's Kenyan ancestry had to do with an ancestral dislike of the British Empire that led him to be pro-EU and against Brexit…OK Boris, that’s just odd…

I’ve heard them say it myself about the days when Britain meant something globally, even though it’s empire and economy were declining - majorly.
Come on it’s just thrashing about because they have no coherent narrative for what would happen post-Brexit - especially when Obama pointed out that they had no right to determine the actions, policies and timetables of the world’s major economic players, in other words the powerlessness of the UK outside the EU.

Of course, there may be EU-hating/Obama-hating Americans who are only too eager for the UK to determine trading policies for the US but I doubt it.
 
Exactly.
I don’t think Pres. Obama should have commented on the Brexit much less a candidate. Any US pol should just go with some neutral statement that we’ll still be best buddies with the UK no matter what.
I agree with this.
 
I understand that there are trade advantages in being in the EU. But are they all that valuable? As yet, I have not seen anything on here, at least, pointing out what Britain will really gain or lose inside or outside the EU.

Japan and Singapore aren’t in the EU or anything like it. Japan isn’t a “continental economy” either, like North America, and it’s utterly dependent on trade for survival. But it does pretty well all the same.

Specifically, what is the advantage, and why is it worth it for Britain other than being able to say it’s part of a big trade organization?
 
I understand that there are trade advantages in being in the EU. But are they all that valuable? As yet, I have not seen anything on here, at least, pointing out what Britain will really gain or lose inside or outside the EU.

Japan and Singapore aren’t in the EU or anything like it. Japan isn’t a “continental economy” either, like North America, and it’s utterly dependent on trade for survival. But it does pretty well all the same.

Specifically, what is the advantage, and why is it worth it for Britain other than being able to say it’s part of a big trade organization?
IMHO an exit from the European Union would mean huge economic costs for Britain and no political benefits. For a start, regulatory differences would increase over time, affecting trading volumes and diminishing the attractiveness of the UK for investment. Some business would likely relocate to Eurozone financial centres or Ireland. That’s not counting the uncertainty in global markets. Moreover the UK becomes much less attractive as a gateway to Europe and as a base for corporate HQs, particularly American. Ireland might profit hugely though as a smaller alternative, especially as an English-speaking one for the US.

This would turn other businesses away from investing or trading, although the severity would depend on the ‘model’ adopted post-Brexit. If we took the Norway route and remained in the EEA to keep access to the single market, we would have to pay into the EU budget and apply EU laws but have no say in making them.

This would keep our economy almost as it is but with a heavy price: our democracy would be curtailed. We’d be enacting laws we haven’t made ourselves to keep our economy afloat. That’s what you call a satellite state. That would be a million times worse than any of the problems Brexiters presently have with EU membership - we’d be a vassal. The UK would be in the European Economic Area and maintain full access to the single market, but have to adopt EU standards and regulations without contributing to making them as we do now. Moreover we’d have to join Schegen and thus be unable to impose immigration restrictions - worse than present when we have an opt-out from this.

What if we decide not to have full access to the market? We get to ignore EU standards and regulations but are subject to the EU’s common external tariff, which heavily censors our ability to trade with the EU in goods and services. So no good and we don’t get the benefit of non-tariff barriers to trade having been abolished in Europe through the common system of regulations that member states and those states in the EEA vassalage get. This negatively impacts our economy, as a result, since we have profited from this easy, propitious regulatory environment for decades.

Your analogy with Japan is fair though, since Japan is an island kingdom like Britain.

The first issue I would personally note with Japan is that Japan is not an island located directly next to a continental-wide economy called the “Asian Union” (AU). If it were an independent state with this Union acting as its primary trading partner and which it was heavily dependant upon, its economy might not be doing so well if it were ‘independent’ from this hypothetical structure.

Take Switzerland. If you read one of my posts yesterday, you’ll know that’s its de facto in the EEA or ‘single market’ and despite not being an EU member state has to comply with virtual every EU directive and pay into the EU budget - but without any say in how it’s governed.

So let’s imagine Japan is in the same situation (albeit Japan is much bigger) vis-à-vis a humongous continental economy at its doorstep, to which it is tied and has to comply with its legislation to access its single market but has no voting rights to decide the very laws it must enact. Let’s also imagine that like Britain with the EU, Japan needs access to the AU’s fictional ‘single market’ for its service industries. If it becomes independent, that access ends, whereas the AU’s manufacturers are still automatically entitled to unlimited rights to sell whatever they want in Japan under global WTO rules - as would be the case with the EU vis-à-vis Britain.

If Japan rejects these restrictions on national sovereignty, its service industries would be locked out of the AU’s single market and this would adversely affect its economy, which has boomed within the AU.

Would its economy be doing quite so well? You can be as ambitious as you like with trade policy but without leverage, you are not even at the table and your stature is vastly diminished.

The EU is a sui generis entity, there is nothing else like it in the entire world. As such, its difficult to draw an analogy between Europe and the rest of the world owing to the enormous chasm of difference created by the existence of the single market.

To properly apply the situation to Japan, you cannot take Japan as it is - you have to imagine a very different East Asia from the one we have today.

The single market exists and will continue to exist post-Brexit. The odd thing is, Britain would still want access too it.

But without membership, access to it amounts to vassalage to the EU.
 
IMHO an exit from the European Union would mean huge economic costs for Britain and no political benefits. For a start, regulatory differences would increase over time, affecting trading volumes and diminishing the attractiveness of the UK for investment. The UK would be in the European Economic Area and maintain full access to the single market, but have to adopt EU standards and regulations without contributing to making them as we do now. Moreover we’d have to join Schegen and thus be unable to impose immigration restrictions - worse than present when we have an opt-out from this.

What if we decide not to have full access to the market? We get to ignore EU standards and regulations but are subject to the EU’s common external tariff, which heavily censors our ability to trade with the EU in goods and services. So no good and we don’t get the benefit of non-tariff barriers to trade having been abolished in Europe through the common system of regulations that member states and those states in the EEA vassalage get. This negatively impacts our economy, as a result, since we have profited from this easy, propitious regulatory environment for decades.

Your analogy with Japan is fair though, since Japan is an island kingdom like Britain.

The first issue I would personally note with Japan is that Japan is not an island located directly next to a continental-wide economy called the “Asian Union” (AU). If it were an independent state with this Union acting as its primary trading partner and which it was heavily dependant upon, its economy might not be doing so well if it were ‘independent’ from this hypothetical structure.

Take Switzerland. If you read one of my posts yesterday, you’ll know that’s its de facto in the EEA or ‘single market’ and despite not being an EU member state has to comply with virtual every EU directive and pay into the EU budget - but without any say in how it’s governed.

So let’s imagine Japan is in the same situation (albeit Japan is much bigger) vis-à-vis a humongous continental economy at its doorstep, to which it is tied and has to comply with its legislation to access its single market but has no voting rights to decide the very laws it must enact. Let’s also imagine that like Britain with the EU, Japan needs access to the AU’s fictional ‘single market’ for its service industries. If it becomes independent, that access ends, whereas the AU’s manufacturers are still automatically entitled to unlimited rights to sell whatever they want in Japan under global WTO rules - as would be the case with the EU vis-à-vis Britain.

If Japan rejects these restrictions on national sovereignty, its service industries would be locked out of the AU’s single market and this would adversely affect its economy, which has boomed within the AU.

Would its economy be doing quite so well? You can be as ambitious as you like with trade policy but without leverage, you are not even at the table and your stature is vastly diminished.

The EU is a sui generis entity, there is nothing else like it in the entire world. As such, its difficult to draw an analogy between Europe and the rest of the world owing to the enormous chasm of difference created by the existence of the single market.

To properly apply the situation to Japan, you cannot take Japan as it is - you have to imagine a very different East Asia from the one we have today.

The single market exists and will continue to exist post-Brexit. The odd thing is, Britain would still want access too it.

But without membership, access to it amounts to vassalage to the EU.
I understand what you’re saying, and dont’ doubt for a minute that you believe every bit of it. But how do we know any of that is really true?

Japan absolutely is right next door to a giant economy; the biggest single economy on earth, and one that is exclusionary and expects others to play by its rules; China. Yes, the Pacific Ocean is very broad, but the next stop east from Tokyo is Los Angles. So Japan is between two massively larger continental economies, and yet, it survives. Japan has essentially no natural resources. Britain at least has gas and oil and perhaps the best grazing land on earth. Why should we assume Britain can’t make its own way in the world?

It’s probably not true anymore, but I recall reading an assessment of the various industrial machines in the world, written by a Russian during the Soviet era. German equipment, he said, was incomparably better engineered than any other, but required engineers to keep it running. American equipment was lavish in its use of raw materials, heavier, stronger, simpler, easily maintained. British equipment was the least expensive, with clever design features that made up for its skimpier (name removed by moderator)uts. All things considered, he preferred British equipment even though German engineering was superior and American equipment lasted longer, because British equipment worked well enough and was a lot cheaper. Who is to say there’s no “niche” for Britain in world markets today?

Again, I understand what you’re saying, and you might be right. But a lot is being assumed in the pro-EU argument.

But regardless, it isn’t for me to say, any more than it is Obama’s or Hillary Clinton’s.
 
Again, I understand what you’re saying, and you might be right. But a lot is being assumed in the pro-EU argument.
Trust me, a lot more is being assumed by the Brexit side than the pro-EU side - hence why our camp is leading.

We at least have the benefit of being able to use both the status quo and the UK’s past outside the EU (pre-1973) as factual points of reference. These facts are clear and any economist or economic historian could point you to them on a graph. Before 1973 and when the EEC had existed since 1957, our economy was the sick man of Europe. Take out an economic history book. It’s true. Those who had joined the EEC were having miracle booms while we were languishing in industrial chaos.

And so we decided to join the EEC and have a piece of the cake. We thrived.

This isn’t the first time something like this happened. In the 19th century Britain was the pre-eminent industrial power. Then the German Confederation became a unified federal state under the Kaiserreich. Germany was vastly overtaking Britain on the eve of war in 1914. Only problem was we couldnt join the Kaissereich it waa our geopolitical enemy. Luckily for us, the Germans made terrible military gambles which caused an elongated slog fest in the trenches and even compelled the US to come in and smash them. As a result, Germany was decimated and for 20 years an uneasy situation transpired in which France and Britain were supposed to be the economic heavyweights keeping the status quo. Then WWII and the drive towards the EU in continental Europe immediately afterwards.

Not matter how bad the EU situation gets, you can be sure that businessmen will keep the well oiled wheels of the single market moving. We won’t have the luck we had in 1914. We will forever have to reckon with the EEC which is the largest market by GDP in the world.

What can Brexiters point too? A hypothetical as “might be” in character as my own prediction?

If our economy was presently suffering from the EU status quo, the Brexiters could string together a worthwhile argument. But as it is, our economy is not suffering from our special membership with opt-outs but has always gained substantially. As such, the economic argument is essentially won by our side and moot. IMHO there is no point in risking our prosperity for a dream of what ‘might’ happen outside the EU, when history can tell us otherwise. So all the Brexiters have to cling too are the twin mantras of immigration and sovereignty.

Do you think it is worth Britain potentially sacrificing it’s relatively strong, growing economy which is predicted to become Europe’s biggest by 2040, if trends persist, to take a leap into the unknown when - as you concede I “might be right”?

Please give me your betting odds up front. No poker face. I reckon I have a strong hand with this one 😃
 
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