Hispanics abandoning organized religion, pollster says

[Rich_Olszewski]

These are statistics that I trust, Rich.

Your statistics do not address hispanic Catholics abandoning organized religion. Your figures speak only of broad growth by Catholicism in the world by continent. Barma is speaking of the United States.

 

[Rich_Olszewski]

Precisely. And it’s everywhere, including in traditionally strong Catholic regions (not the USA’s South), and including in not-very-religious regions. This trend away from Catholicism and toward Protestantism is continuing, not declining.

Karl Keating noted this trend in his book on Fundamentalism and Catholicism.

 

[Roy5]

Catholicism - and Christianity in general - has grown considerably in Africa - true.

However, I doubt if that situation exists elsewhere.

In Latin America, evangelical Protestantism, especially Pentecostalism, had made great headway. I read somewhere that in Brazil more evangelicals are in church in a typical Sunday than at Mass. No, there still are many more Catholics, but not as faithful as the evangelicals are. 

 In Europe the official Catholic figures are totally unreliable. I haven't seen a current *Catholic Almanac*, but it used to identify Italy as 97.5% Catholic, Ireland as 93% Catholic, Spain as 98.5% Catholic - etc. Such statistics in no way reflect the real situation in such nations, where attendance at Mass has fallen sharply. Of course, church-going Protestants have gone down in Europe, also - as in Great Britain, Sweden and elsewhere. A post-Christian Europe? The most encouraging area might be Russia where after decades of official atheism millions of Orthodox Christians have emerged since the downfall of the USSR. 

 In such places as China, figures are all but impossible to come by. There are millions of Christians there, most of them Protestants, but they are vastly outnumbered by people of other or no faith affiliation. 

 It is of little value, and misleading, to count people who have disaffiliated from the church. Here in the USA, I've read, include 30 million baptized Catholics have left the church to go elsewhere or nowhere.

Those who believe the Church is destined by God to triumph have little to fear.

 

[Rich_Olszewski]

 It is of little value, and misleading, to count people who have disaffiliated from the church. Here in the USA, I've read, include 30 million baptized Catholics have left the church to go elsewhere or nowhere.

I have no statistics about this, but I suspect that those who have left the Church leave to go nowhere. They’ve not become Baptists or such so much as they’ve just become “fallen away” Catholics, nominally Catholics, but no more than that. Religion is not a part of their lives any longer. IMO, anyway.

 

[Roy5]

Rich

You may be right. However, I am a sometimes student of religion. That is, I sometimes visit other churches, everything from Mormon to Muslim to Mennonite to Methodist. I am bold enough to talk to strangers, often asking them about their religious background.

I find that in evangelical Protestant churches, especially large and rather new ones, as well as in many mainline churches, a high percentage of those attending are former Catholics. Perhaps this area isn't typical, but that's what I've found. There are former Protestants in Catholic churches, also, but the number/percentage seems much lower.

 Just reporting on my experience. God bless everybody.

 

[Not_Sure_1]

A lot of Hispanics are poorly catechized and usually in need of help in the US. The protestant missionaries usually snatch them up easily.

 

[Tigg]

I dont buy it one bit: an Evangelical group publishing a ‘poll’ that is, in the final analysis, anti-Catholic. Just because those who stand to benefit from distress in the Church publish a sub-standard hit piece against Hispanic Catholicism doesn’t mean I have to agree with it. In fact, given the evidence to the contrary, its ‘findings’ are patently absurd and, at best, totally anecdotal.

But is it really anti-Catholic, TN? I am what most would descirbe a “Traditionalist” Catholic, altho I am definitely mainstream and attend the Novus Ordo (not that I have a choice since the Tridentine Mass is not offered in our area - shortage of priests and none trained in the EF.) I love the Church and I love the faith with all my heart, but facts are facts. I have personally seen the devastating effects of watered down Catholicism in our RE program, liturgical abuse, and the mockery of old devotionals and Tradition. This is not coming from evangelicals - it is coming from within the Church herself!

 

[Tigg]

I have no statistics about this, but I suspect that those who have left the Church leave to go nowhere. They’ve not become Baptists or such so much as they’ve just become “fallen away” Catholics, nominally Catholics, but no more than that. Religion is not a part of their lives any longer. IMO, anyway.

I completely agree! Somewhere along the way…they have lost their faith!

 

[Brendan]

Karl Keating noted this trend in his book on Fundamentalism and Catholicism.

When I was in Diaconate formation, there was a conference at the seminary on the “New Evanglization”.

The Hispanic population was identified as a risk group even 5 years ago. The studies the archdiocese commissioned showed that, while immigrants were highly religious and Catholic, their children were primarly cultural Catholics and the grandchild of hispanic immigrants were more lilkely to be evangelical protestants than Catholics.

Also, the hispanic poplulation was among the lowest ethic group in terms of vocations to the priesthood. Only Carribean blacks had a lower vocation rate.

 

[TevereNauta]

But is it really anti-Catholic, TN? I am what most would descirbe a “Traditionalist” Catholic, altho I am definitely mainstream and attend the Novus Ordo (not that I have a choice since the Tridentine Mass is not offered in our area - shortage of priests and none trained in the EF.) I love the Church and I love the faith with all my heart, but facts are facts. I have personally seen the devastating effects of watered down Catholicism in our RE program, liturgical abuse, and the mockery of old devotionals and Tradition. This is not coming from evangelicals - it is coming from within the Church herself!

Indeed—for the record, Tigg, I am not a Traditional Catholic per se…I too attend the OF Mass, although I have come to realize that my parish is a bit more ‘traditional’ than some: chapel veils, stations of the Cross, kneelers, et al. One of the perks of having the Norbertines around, I suppose! (I got a stark contrast when, out of town, I attended a very OF Mass, the ‘band’ was so loud and, to be charitable, off-key that I couldn’t even manage to pray. But Holy Mass is Holy Mass, to each their own.)

I guess we are at this point trading anecdotes on this thread. I admit that my contention that Hispanic immigrants to the USA remaining Catholic en masse might be a bit assumptive (though I still, vehemently, deny the validity of the Barna folks as impartial measurers of Catholicism) but that assumption came from my experience—having many Latino friends and neighbors, 2nd and 3rd Gen—that Hispanics, at least in Southern California, are a fairly devout group of Catholics. That said, yes, I’ve seen the small start-up Evangelical churches with their misrepresenting, traditional Cross-topped steeples and founts of holy water designed to lure away Latinos from the Church. America is, and has always been, fairly hostile to the ideology of Catholicism, so it’s no surprise that Hispanics are indeed being lured away, though it is still, I believe, a significant minority.

 

[eddy714]

I live in Santa Ana California where a high percent of Hispanics are Catholic. Our sunday mass is jammed packed that if you don’t come in early you have to stand up.

I have gone to Long Beach for Mass also and I see the same thing so I don’t know where they get this from.

In Mexico when I do go visit Sunday mass is not that full thats where I do see a difference.

Praying for the souls of Purgatory.

 

[Rich_Olszewski]

I have gone to Long Beach for Mass also and I see the same thing so I don’t know where they get this from.

It all has to do with the parish you’re visiting, the number of other parishes catering to Hispanics, etc. You can’t generalize one way or the other from a handful of parishes.

 

[daniel1212]

I am on the mailing list and saw this thread, and would like to say that denying the validity of statistics because they negatively reflect on the Roman church is a typical response, but while one may impugn the credibility of Barna due to it being evangelical, its findings often are a challenge to that faith as well, and are overall consistent with a multiplicity of other pollsters which show Christian faith to overall be in decline, though they show liberalism in the Catholic church to be more severe: peacebyjesus.com/RC-Stats_vs._Evang.html.

Some of these were commissioned by Catholic groups, and or are quoted by them in seeking to raise an alarm.

 

[debraran]

I could ask him again, but I thought our parish priest said in the USA, they aren’t as reverent as their own country, he thought it was the culture here. He was in Peru for years and there they are, but the longer they are here, not as much.
Of course it seems like they are, they outnumber the non-spanish church attendees but that is perception sometimes.

Overall though, I wouldn’t worry about how many are going or not going, the reasons that effect them, effect us all, it’s a problem for everyone.

 

[Contarini]

I could always smell a rat, as Mark Twain says there are “lies, damned lies, and statistics.”

To wit this report is utter tosh and nonsense. The ‘pollster’ who ‘authored’ this study (i.e. a yellow journalistic ‘hit-piece’ against some of the most devout members of Christ’s flock) is, in fact, an ultra-secular type who has no doubt the agenda to destroy Christianity in general and Catholicism in particular, according to their website: “The Barna Group provides research, resources and training to facilitate transformation in organizations, communities and individuals.” Hardly an impartial analysis, hmm? Indeed, the logo of the Barna Group is: Examine. Illuminate. Transform (Empahsis mine). One may read more–if they have the stomach to–at www.barna.org.

Actually Barna is an evangelical whose main goal seems to be to transform and revive evangelicalism. He co-wrote a book called Pagan Christianity which embraced the whole “:early Christianity went wrong because it took on pagan influences” thesis that Catholics have often heard from fundamentalists. However, while Barna doesn’t seem particularly friendly to Catholicism, his main target isn’t Catholicism but mainstream evangelical Protestantism. Admittedly, in many ways he’s hostile to mainstream evangelicalism because he thinks it’s too much like Catholicism. . . . but he’s certainly not “ultra-secular.”

However, I do find the way Barna surveys are constructed to be often highly dubious. Pagan Christianity reveals that he has very opinionated ideas about what is wrong with modern evangelicalism, and these ideas seem to shape his behavior as a pollster. I don’t think his polls should be ignored, but they shouldn’t be taken as Gospel truth (no polls should be so taken, in fact).

Edwin

 

[chronicles1632]

Have you been in a spanish mass?

 

[daniel1212]

Actually Barna is an evangelical whose main goal seems to be to transform and revive evangelicalism. He co-wrote a book called Pagan Christianity which… reveals that he has very opinionated ideas about what is wrong with modern evangelicalism, and these ideas seem to shape his behavior as a pollster. I don’t think his polls should be ignored, but they shouldn’t be taken as Gospel truth (no polls should be so taken, in fact).
Edwin

The suspicion is that Barna’s polls are contrived to support his thesis, rather than the latter being a result of his surveys. This is not restricted to Barna, but the usual response i have seen from Catholics to surveys which show disunity and Catholics as overall liberal in moral views, etc. in contrast to evangelicals is to charge that the pollsters (Gallup, Pew research, Baylor, etc.) are biased against Catholics due to it being a threat to the liberalism of the mainstream media, and which supposes that for some reason they favor evangelicals.

Of course, polls which show a favored candidate for office are also impugned as biased against the conservative.

I do not doubt that the basic world view of such pollsters is liberal, or that Barna is conservative, but one can usually read the questions and see how the results were formulated, and i think they are overall provide an accurate picture, and numerous comparisons show an overall consistency. And which testifies to spiritual declension accross the board.

 

[TevereNauta]

Actually Barna is an evangelical whose main goal seems to be to transform and revive evangelicalism. He co-wrote a book called Pagan Christianity which embraced the whole “:early Christianity went wrong because it took on pagan influences” thesis that Catholics have often heard from fundamentalists. However, while Barna doesn’t seem particularly friendly to Catholicism, his main target isn’t Catholicism but mainstream evangelical Protestantism. Admittedly, in many ways he’s hostile to mainstream evangelicalism because he thinks it’s too much like Catholicism. . . . but he’s certainly not “ultra-secular.”

However, I do find the way Barna surveys are constructed to be often highly dubious. Pagan Christianity reveals that he has very opinionated ideas about what is wrong with modern evangelicalism, and these ideas seem to shape his behavior as a pollster. I don’t think his polls should be ignored, but they shouldn’t be taken as Gospel truth (no polls should be so taken, in fact).

Edwin

Grazie Contarini! I probably went off a bit too quick down the secular defamation track, and your salient points I think really captured the thrust of my argument, that basically no polls as you say should be taken as Gospel truth. But well said.