Hispanics in Church

[Califman831]

They really were not accepted until their sons started dieing in WWII in large numbers.

Is it interesting how they like to send us “undesirables” to the front lines, to build their railroads, mine their gold, and pick their crops and at the same time refuse to call us Americans? Without us they would still be in England. If we get a chance to get together for a party it will be a blast, because we are the worlds best cooks. I wonder how good the beer is in italy… hmm

 

[JW10631]

There is a lot of information about the hostility towards the Catholic Church in the history of the US. The Klan used to march through my grandmother’s hometown of Bobtown, Pennsylvania (Greene County, the very southwestern county in PA) when she was a little girl.

I read a story about a group of Irish enlisted in the US Army fighting the Mexicans in the US-Mexican War. They had received word that Catholic parishes were being burned in Philadelphia and other places and switched sides to fight for Mexico, bringing even more wrath down on Catholics in the US.

Oregon passed a law banning Catholic schools. It had to be overturned by the US Supreme Court.

Supreme Court Justice Hugo Black, an appointee of FDR, was a judge in a case in Birmingham, Alabama. In this case, a man, angry that a priest whose name escapes em now, married his daughter to a Puerto Rican. The man killed the priest and was found innocent in the trial which Black presided.

Generally, I consider anti-Catholics to be stupid.

 

[Califman831]

I read a story about a group of Irish enlisted in the US Army fighting the Mexicans in the US-Mexican War. They had received word that Catholic parishes were being burned in Philadelphia and other places and switched sides to fight for Mexico, bringing even more wrath down on Catholics in the US.

A while back on some show, it was mentioned that many irish immigrated to mexico during the potato famine because of the country’s strong catholic history. Even today you have a lot of mexicans with redish hair.

 

[m134e5]

I see nothing wrong with getting that Latino type stuff either. I just hope that charimatic stuff is purged. I also hope the Liberation Theology goes away too. The Article mentions the Latino Catholics are Democrats, this could hint to Liberation Theology.

Latino Catholics are more charismatic- that probably won’t go away. If we try to make it, they’ll just leave the Church. You can’t expect Latinos to go to Mass, and sing Holy God we Praise Thy Name or Come Holy Ghost all the time. That isn’t their culture- I’m not sure it ever was a part of their culture. The Liberation theology will go away if people who know how to relate to them (it is difficult, since US and Central/South American cultures are so different) will become evangelists.

Being a democrat doesn’t mean you also follow liberation theology. I know plenty of Catholic democrats who are as orthodox as can be and are of many different racial/ethnic backgrounds (naturally, if they are orthodox, they disagree with the pro-choice politicians- and they may not vote democrat because of them, but agree with most of the democrats’ positions- they are more like “Democrats in exile”).

 

[Califman831]

You can’t expect Latinos to go to Mass, and sing Holy God we Praise Thy Name or Come Holy Ghost all the time. That isn’t their culture- I’m not sure it ever was a part of their culture. The Liberation theology will go away if people who know how to relate to them (it is difficult, since US and Central/South American cultures are so different) will become evangelists.

We have our own hymns to praise god, as the Italians, Irish, and others, probably have their own respective music. We are all catholics worshiping the one god.

 

[hazmatdude]

I notice that this thread is still going even though the original post was on 5-21-04 and the last was 7-12-07 so I guess its O.K. for me to add my two cents.

Recently in my local Diocesan newspaper a hispanic (latino) woman defiantly stated that “latino’s will change the Church” and I believe it. Or that we have a former California congressman who happens to be latino announcing that “we will bury you” borrowing from the Nikita Khrushchev speech when he pounded his shoe on the table at the UN in the mid-60’s. In other words what he is gloating about is that through unrestricted illegal immigration, essentially unrestricted legal immigration from Latin America, the high birth rates of latino’s and the low birth rate of Americans particularly Caucasians the American culture will be overwhelmed and changed. Will this change the Church in America for the better, I don’t think so.

I want you to now just imagine (look up the lyrics for John Lennon, former “Beatles” singer and his song “Imagine” that glorified of the Communist Manifesto) one Sunday you, an English speaker of any race go to Mass since it is attended by people who’ ancestors came from at least 3 continents and the Pastor announces that the English Mass will be canceled in two weeks so that the Guadalupena’s can hold their celebration and procession for the feast of Our Lady of Guadalupe which by the way turned out to be entirely in spanish! This happens every year in the Diocese of Oakland. Or when the Nun who is the Social Justice director is asked why this happens and she says to more or less to just get used to it. Or how about this one, again from the local Diocesan newspaper stating more then 1,500 attended the Charismatic Renewal (CR) Mass and there is a latino Director of the Charismatic Renewal but there isn’t a corollary for English speaking peoples of all racesin the Diocese. Of course the entire CR was in spanish but you would be welcome. Yea right! Wait a minute why aren’t the proceedings in both English and spanish like Christmas and Easter? Well, because this devotion was promulgated by the latino community read that, not you English speakers and not welcome… Or how would you like to go to every single Holy Day, Christmas and Easter mass and its bilingual and we are so tolerant of diversity that all the music now has a latino sound to it?

Someone mentioned that Europeans once influenced the Church. True! My heritage is European but we became Americans. Adopted it as our own. My grandparents insisted that their children speak English. Even to the point where at least in my family we don’t speak any Polish, Ukrainian or French after only one generation. The new immigrants don’t want to speak English because they continue to identify with their heritage and we, as a nation encourage this! In my neighborhood 3rd generation children still have latino accents. We now have an influx of 20 millions illegal alien the majority of whom are latino and a significant proportion of legal immigrants from Latin American countries who do not identify themselves as American. The USCCB blurs the distinction between legal and illegal by promoting bilingual Masses, Masses every Sunday in spanish and never, ever host English language classes for newcomers and we are told to welcome the “stranger among us.” In the 60’s America tried to wipe out segregation and the USCCB is now actively promoting it. How sad!

God bless you all but watch your back because those within the Church who promote multi-culturalism, diversity and now secular modernism within the Church in America in lieu of the American culture will label and libel you to promote their new faith.

 

[Califman831]

^^^ what time capsule did he come out of?

 

[Califman831]

Latinos changing the church in this confident is nothing new, since they were one of the primary groups that brought the catholic faith to this land. You do have a point about unrestricted immigration changing the language and the Americas, but you fail to acknowledge that Spanish was the original tongue used by the church throughout California, next came English, and now Spanish again. Who knows some day it may be Chinese or Japanese. It would be interesting to know if any mission in the west has an English name, doubtful since they are mainly Spanish, such as La missiones de carmel, san jaun baptista, soledad, san juan capistrano. along with many names of cities. I was actually sitting in a dinner today and was looking over a book of California city names and their origins. A majority of the ones without Spanish names, had a name change. Guess from which language? Spanish. Oakland was originally called encinal, which translates into oakgrove. let us also not forget that the missions under the Spanish and Mexicans were in better shape than they are now. Today they are largely tourist attractions, rather than their intended places of worship. So, tell me how much worse can they be under the original owners? I also do not see how you can be possibly shocked that a service honor our lady of Guadalupe was held in Spanish. This was the language of the church at that time, and very likely the one she used to communicate with San Juan Diego. Now if it was good enough for her why is not good enough for you? Also for your information the term is Guadalupana not Guadalupena.

 

[hazmatdude]

^^^ what time capsule did he come out of?

Exactly what type of a church do you want? If you want a tower of babel that’s what we are getting. My grandparents immigrated legally to the USA through Ellis Island at the turn of the last century they wanted to become Americans. They insisted that their children speak English and assimilate and become Americans. What do you want?

 

[Cobbfmly]

…let us also not forget that the missions under the Spanish and Mexicans were in better shape than they are now. Today they are largely tourist attractions, rather than their intended places of worship. So, tell me how much worse can they be under the original owners? …

Historically the above quote is incorrect:

Mexico passed a law in 1833 secularizing the missions. Secularization was implemented between 1834 and 1836. With secularization all mission property, except the churches, priests’ quarters and priests’ garden (these were to become parishes), were turned over to the Indians.

Secularization was the start of the decline of the missions, primarily through pillaging/looting of roof tiles and lumber resulting in the adobe being exposed to the weather.

In 1847 the United States won California from Mexico. Between the 1850’s and 1860’s through acts of Congress most mission properties were returned to the Catholic Church. The cost of repairing and maintaining the missions are high and the Church could not afford to repair and/or maintain some of the missions, resulting in continued deterioration.

Today, the “tourist attraction” aspect of the missions owned by the Church allows the missions to be repaired and/or maintained so that they can continue to be used as places of worship, pilgrimage, etc. As some of these “tourist attraction” missions were not parishes or had a separate parish church from the mission church, they were able to offer the Tridentine Mass under Quattuor abhinc annos (Oct 3, 1984).

 

[Califman831]

I want to serve god, despite my unworthiness. I am probably just a punk, going to hell, trying to figure things out, but hopefully in some capacity something I do something pleases him. Well you asked.

 

[Dee_Dee_King]

if the illegals flooding into our country were militant catholics driven to establish Christ as our king, i would welcome them open arms, spanish speaking or not. but the fact is many are protestant and their catholicism is luke warm at best like their american neighbors. they are bringing with them marxist baggage and will be taken advantage of by big buisness and the liberal elite.

therefore, i don’t see hispanics as bringing much good to our culture. if anything, it will hasten the destruction of america into a globalistic nightmare ruled by international corporations and the secular left.

 

[hazmatdude]

I want to serve god, despite my unworthiness…trying to figure things out…Well you asked.

Yes, God bless you. Perhaps you need to ask, “Why did God make me?” Answer, “God made me to know Him, to love Him, and to serve Him in this world, and to be happy with Him for ever in heaven.”

Going back to your second response to me you seem to have very confused allegiances for someone who I presume is an American citizen. Why in the world do you think it is appropriate to change the language from English to spanish to chinese or japanese or whatever? Spanish is not the only foreign language used in America but Latino’s seem to overwhelmingly think they don’t need to speak English. Seems to me this question was settled by our founding fathers when they decided whether Americans should speak English or German. Maybe you should be more concerned for the future of your country instead of giving up on it.

Also why do you believe that it is O.K. for the Church to discriminate against English speaking people of all RACES by serving one community to the exclusion of another because it has constructed a misguided system of language barriers. The cancellation of English language masses or hosting celebrations for Our Lady of Guadelupe or Latino Charismatic’s exclusively in spanish is not appropriate in an English speaking country.

This country has gone a long way since the 60’s to erase racial discrimination and yet the Church does very little to harmonize the races or ethnic groups with its ultra liberal, PC policies. It would serve all of the faithful more if the Church would host English language classes instead of promoting the balkanization of America. And yet you would be hard pressed to find a parish or a Diocese anywhere in the country doing so. Verstahe?

 

[Califman831]

First I have not given up on the United States or its people, nor the idea that this country is made up of many cultures some foreign to this continent like the English, French, Spanish, Irish, and German all of which are European in origin not Native American. My main point is that over time things change, the united states evolves and sometime devolves and it really does matter what language we choose to pray in as long as we pray? Its the same God we call out too, and he loves everyone of us. I also think that in time and thanks to mass communication the world languages will merge, and there is no need to fear it. Change is good How would would u feel about all Latin services?

 

[hazmatdude]

How would would u feel about all Latin services?

When I was growing up we had the Tridentine latin rite mass. It was beautiful and reverent and our churches were filled with enthusiastic people worshiping together. Then came the disaster that followed Vatican II which unfortunately we haven’t recovered from yet.

By the way I want to thank Dee Dee King and Cobbfmly for your observations. They were perfect.

Califman831 after your last comments all I will say is God bless you and I will say a prayer for you. Good luck.

 

[Califman831]

When I was growing up we had the Tridentine latin rite mass. It was beautiful and reverent and our churches were filled with enthusiastic people worshiping together. Then came the disaster that followed Vatican II which unfortunately we haven’t recovered from yet.

Califman831 after your last comments all I will say is God bless you and I will say a prayer for you. Good luck.

thanks, and I too will pray for you. At least we both agree on the Tridentine mass. blessings and good will to you.

 

[Wisdom]

if the illegals flooding into our country were militant catholics driven to establish Christ as our king, i would welcome them open arms, spanish speaking or not. but the fact is many are protestant and their catholicism is luke warm at best like their american neighbors. they are bringing with them marxist baggage and will be taken advantage of by big buisness and the liberal elite.

therefore, i don’t see hispanics as bringing much good to our culture. if anything, it will hasten the destruction of america into a globalistic nightmare ruled by international corporations and the secular left.

Oh geez talk about stereotypes. If you met these people and talked to them you would find they are simple people with simple family values they are not interested in any sort of politics taht does not affect them they are not Marxist in any way this is something that was popular in central america in the 80’s their is backlash within the catholic church against this movement as they see what it brings them in Hugo Chavez the church is now full of anti-marxist not Marxist but you sould 30 years behing the times anyway. These people come here to work and make a buck not to bring the destruction of western civilization as you describe it. Your a little looney here with these assertions. And all of this is not clearly their fault its two way street here its clear the government and big business and heck your next door neighbor who needs a gardener or cleaning lady who hires them contributes to the undocumented. Its simple if americans did not hire them they would not come but those like you put the pile on and insutls on those who are poor and have little choice. Let’s see they can make $5 a day in Mexico or $10 an hour in the US doing the same job you tell me what you would do? These people are the victims of a corrupt systemt that both the US and Mexican government have been in collusion the last 40 years or so as the US due to decreasing birth rates don’t have enough workers to fill certain jobs. And the Mexican government of course instead of solving its poverty problem merely allows it to be shipped across the border the innocents here are the people with little choice but to cross the border for a beter life. They are doing it for that reason not to spread Marxist idealogy and controbute to the downfall of westtern civilization. I heard one unamed Itallian government official proclaim after seeing the american protest of this proclaim our country wish it was closer to Mexico as its people are peaceful and have the same Christian and western values they would be perfect fits for Italy insead we have people of a different faith Ie Islam with faith that clashes with western civilization instead of complimenting it and instead of working hard they protest hard that Italy is not Islamic enough. Hey the thing you should worry about is not Mexicans but Islamist bringing down western civilization.

 

[Califman831]

From Romans

 Brothers, my heart's desire and prayer to God on their behalf is for salvation.

2
I testify with regard to them that they have zeal for God, but it is not discerning.
3
For, in their unawareness of the righteousness that comes from God and their attempt to establish their own (righteousness), they did not submit to the righteousness of God.
4
For Christ is the end 2 of the law for the justification of everyone who has faith.
5
3 Moses writes about the righteousness that comes from (the) law, “The one who does these things will live by them.”
6
But the righteousness that comes from faith says, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will go up into heaven?’ (that is, to bring Christ down)
7
4 or ‘Who will go down into the abyss?’ (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).”
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But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we preach),
9
for, if you confess 5 with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
10
For one believes with the heart and so is justified, and one confesses with the mouth and so is saved.
11
For the scripture says, “No one who believes in him will be put to shame.”
12
For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; the same Lord is Lord of all, enriching all who call upon him.
13
For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

 

[SeekerJen]

therefore, i don’t see hispanics as bringing much good to our culture.

Gee, thanks.

 

[lesqueda]

As a hispanic e from Texas, and a cradle Catholic, my experience has been that I have rarely been to a Catholic church where a great many of the attendee were NOT hispanic. The majority of hispanics I know are Catholic, it is the dominant religion inthis culture. Now that I live in a predominantly non-hispanic region, I have still found that every hispanic I have met is Catholic. Regardless of their ancestry origin… Puerto Rican, Mexican, Venenzuelen, etc.

Also, there is a tendency to confuse being hispanic with being an immigrant. I am American born as are my parents and my grandparents. Same goes for my husband and countless other hispanic people we know. In fact, I venture to say thay my ancestors were here long before many of my non-hispanic friends.

I see nothing wrong with a priest from Mexico visiting on a green card. I’m sure the guest Father we recently had in our church from Africa recently is here in America via the same immigration requirments as that priest from Mexico.

As far as masses being offered in Spanish, our goal as Catholics and Christians is to spread the word of God. If there is a segment of the congregation that is wanting to hear God’s word we should make every effort to accomadate. If that segment is not very large, there are still lots the church can do; allow them to form their own bible study in their language, locate a volunteer with in the congregation who speaks their language to to assist them in understanding the scripture, or guiding them to someone who can assiste them, etc…

In the end, our purpose is live by God’s word and spread His word to everyone who will listen.