Historic first visit by a Pope to Westminster Abbey in London

[lizardley]

Obedience to God ‘must be free of intellectual conformism or facile accommodation to the spirit of the age,’ says the Holy Father during historic first visit by a Pope to Westminster Abbey in London tonight

For all the latest news on day one (arrival in Scotland and meeting with Queen) and day two of the Holy Father’s UK visit, go to

sconews.co.uk

 

[wisdomseeker]

What i found interesting is that the holy father refrains from mention the Catholic Church, instead he said the Apostolic Faith. i am troubled by this. it seems to me that the leaders of the Church are getting away more and more from the word Catholic. why is that? has anybody here also notice this?

 

[Digitonomy]

What i found interesting is that the holy father refrains from mention the Catholic Church, instead he said the Apostolic Faith. i am troubled by this. it seems to me that the leaders of the Church are getting away more and more from the word Catholic.

Are you sure leaders of the Church are getting away more and more from the word “Catholic,” or are they just limiting its use during the UK visit in order to emphasize the common history between Catholics and Anglicans?

 

[wisdomseeker]

Are you sure leaders of the Church are getting away more and more from the word “Catholic,” or are they just limiting its use during the UK visit in order to emphasize the common history between Catholics and Anglicans?

i have notice this lately. if it is limiting the word while in UK, why? is this not an omission of the Truth in favor of ecumenism? is this a good example for Catholics? who is already deep into hiding the Truth as to not offend those outside the Faith?

 

[Digitonomy]

i have notice this lately. if it is limiting the word while in UK, why? is this not an omission of the Truth in favor of ecumenism? is this a good example for Catholics? who is already deep into hiding the Truth as to not offend those outside the Faith?

Are you suggesting the Holy Father is “deep into hiding the Truth”? I suppose if the Church of England is in the dark about Benedict’s position, and the official position of the Catholic Church on various issues, it would be wrong to keep silent about it on an extended trip like this one. Fortunately, I don’t think there is much ignorance in this area, so it makes sense to concentrate on areas of mutual interest where we can work together.

 

[JReducation]

What i found interesting is that the holy father refrains from mention the Catholic Church, instead he said the Apostolic Faith. i am troubled by this. it seems to me that the leaders of the Church are getting away more and more from the word Catholic. why is that? has anybody here also notice this?

Many Western European Catholics, like most American Catholics often use the term Catholic Church and Roman Catholic Church interchangeably, unintentionally excluding and offending other Catholics. Since the papacy of John Paul II, the Vatican has tried to do two things: to stear clear of all language that excludes the Oriental Churches, especially at functions where they are present. The use of the word Catholic in a larger circle of non Catholics calls their attention to the Roman Church, because that’s what they have been taught to be Catholic. Apostolic is better understood to mean Apostolic Succession.

Second, the Vatican wants to bridge the gap between East and West, the two lungs as Pope Benedict calls it. There was a very big complaint by the Eastern Patriarchs and Metropolitans against the Roman Catholics because we use offensive terms such as Uniate and Uniat Churches or refer to their Churches as rites, when in fact a rite is one thing and a Church is another. There are only six rites, if I’m not mistaken and 22 Catholic Churches. The Oriental Churches feel much closer to the Orthodox than to the Romans. Their allegience is to the Pontiff, not to the Roman tradition.

In a public setting like this one, there were many Oriental Christians: Catholics and Orthodox alike Then there were the TAC. The term Apostolic Churches includes all of us and is not as easily confused with Roman Church, as the term Catholic Church has been confused.

However, if you noticed, the Holy Father did refer to himself as the Successor of St. Peter and the Bishop of Rome several times, to the point that the Archbishop seemed to take note and made reference to it in his talk. It was very clear that the Holy Father was referring to the Church of the Apostles and not the Protestant community.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[JW10631]

JReducation, great post.

The term “Roman Catholic” is almost exclusively found in the English speaking world. It was originally used as a slur or an insult to the recusants who stayed loyal to Rome.

My wife is from Colombia and is Catholic. Latinos do not use the term Catolica Romana.

Westminster Abbey was built by the Catholic Church. I wonder how many English are aware of that.

 

[wisdomseeker]

JReducation, great post.

The term “Roman Catholic” is almost exclusively found in the English speaking world. It was originally used as a slur or an insult to the recusants who stayed loyal to Rome.

My wife is from Colombia and is Catholic. Latinos do not use the term Catolica Romana.

Westminster Abbey was built by the Catholic Church. I wonder how many English are aware of that.

Yes, i am from south america, and you will never see me here ever saying Roman Catholic. i always say, the Catholic Church. for this is how she is always been known to me, and is what i always call her the Catholic Church.

 

[JReducation]

I believe that those of us who were born during the life of the Soviet Block were deprived of our Catholic richness, because the Eastern Churches were trapped behind the Iron Curtain. Since we had such little contact with them and they follow the same rites as the Orthodox Churches, they fell off of our radar.

In the Western World, Catholicism became Roman. Not only did Catholics limit themselves, but our Protestant brethren also adopted the same mindset. Roman Catholic and Catholic became synonimous, when they are not.

John Paul II and Benedict XVI were eye-witnesses to the isolation of Eastern Europe. They have expressed great solidarity with the Oriental Catholics, especially those who lived for almost five decades separated from the rest of the Church by the Iron Curtain. They have tried everything to help them feel at home. Remember, these people were trapped behind the Iron Curtain and their contact with Christianity was with Orthodox Christianity, which was also a prisoner of Communism and Islam. It’s natural that they have a sense of solidarity with each other. They share rituals, the same apostolic roots and the same experience of oppression.

Now that the wall has been brought down, it’s time for us Roman Catholics to bring down the psycho-social walls between us and the rest of the Catholic Church. One way to do this is to simply say “the Church” or to refer to ourselves correctly, “Roman Catholics” as they refer to themselves as “Ukranian Catholics” and so forth. The West can no longer monopolize the name Catholic. We are brothers and sisters from different traditions that share one faith.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[bona_fides_1]

I was trying to pay attention to what I call the conspicuous “men in black” sitting to the left of the altar on the front row with the Catholic cardinals and bishops. This was an eclectic mix of Orthodox and the Anglican Archbishop of Canterbury and some others who’s entrapings I did not recognize but looked decidedly “reformer” in appearance.

The camera angle and editing did not permit us (apparently) to see if these men received communion. I wanted to observe the body language of these men during the liturgy of the Eucharist and distribution but either missed it or it was conveniently off camera.

Anyone know what happened here or what the protocol is for Orthodox VIPs and Anglicans when Eucharist is presented? How did they avoid embarassing these men who would not normally be permitted to receive by Catholic policy or by their own faith policy?

BF

 

[JReducation]

I was trying to pay attention to what I call the conspicuous “men in black” sitting to the left of the altar on the front row with the Catholic cardinals and bishops. This was an eclectic mix of Orthodox and the Anglican Archbishop of Canterbury and some others who’s entrapings I did not recognize but looked decidedly “reformer” in appearance.

The camera angle and editing did not permit us (apparently) to see if these men received communion. I wanted to observe the body language of these men during the liturgy of the Eucharist and distribution but either missed it or it was conveniently off camera.

Anyone know what happened here or what the protocol is for Orthodox VIPs and Anglicans when Eucharist is presented? How did they avoid embarassing these men who would not normally be permitted to receive by Catholic policy or by their own faith policy?

BF

Except for the Anglican prelates, the men in black robes and head-gear are Orthodox Christians. Since all are baptized and since the presider is the pope, he can allow them to receive Holy Communion if they ask. He did it as his installation mass and at the funeral of John Paul II. If they went to communion at this mass, it was off camera. I do know that Pope Benedict does not refuse them communion when they ask for it, neither did Pius XII or John XXIII. I don’t know about Paul VI or John Paul II. But there are pictures of these popes giving communion to the Orthodox and the Anglican hierarchy.

The truth is that these men are in a very unique position, which is different fromt he man in the pew. The Orthodox have communion in sacris with the Catholic Church. There is no question there about their belief in the Eucharist and their union with Catholicism on most points. The Anglicans know the Catholic and Orthodox teaching on the Eucharist. So I guess that if an Anglican bishop believes in the real presence, a pope may grant the permission. There is no law the prohibits a pope doing this. Even a bishop can allow it, under certain conditions. I don’t know all the details on when a bishop can do this. I’m not a Canon Lawyer. But popes are above the law. Canon law is a mute question here.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[bona_fides_1]

Except for the Anglican prelates, the men in black robes and head-gear are Orthodox Christians. Since all are baptized and since the presider is the pope, he can allow them to receive Holy Communion if they ask. He did it as his installation mass and at the funeral of John Paul II. If they went to communion at this mass, it was off camera. I do know that Pope Benedict does not refuse them communion when they ask for it, neither did Pius XII or John XXIII. I don’t know about Paul VI or John Paul II. But there are pictures of these popes giving communion to the Orthodox and the Anglican hierarchy.

The truth is that these men are in a very unique position, which is different from the man in the pew. The Orthodox have communion in sacris with the Catholic Church. There is no question there about their belief in the Eucharist and their union with Catholicism on most points. The Anglicans know the Catholic and Orthodox teaching on the Eucharist. So I guess that if an Anglican bishop believes in the real presence, a pope may grant the permission. There is no law the prohibits a pope doing this. Even a bishop can allow it, under certain conditions. I don’t know all the details on when a bishop can do this. I’m not a Canon Lawyer. But popes are above the law. Canon law is a mute question here.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

Thanks JR. I assumed something like this for the Orthodox but was unsure about the Anglicans who depart substantially from Catholic theology/faith and hold to a con-substantial view. I really wanted to observe the Archbishop of Canterbury receiving communion or asking for a blessing from the Pope - what a magnificent poster photo that would have made.

This was a monumental day for Catholics! Can anyone just imagine King Henry, King Edward, and King Elizabeth turning over in their graves to see the day that their sovereign England was forced by the social protocol and mores of the day to accommodate Catholics back in their original churches in England! OMG it felt like such justice. England had no way to stop Pope Benedict from conducting mass in one of the Catholic Church’s very own original churches without appearing as complete bigots in permitting Muslims and homosexual and every other fringe group in their modern secularist society to speak publicly.

To her credit I must say that The Queen was very generous in her comment in welcoming the pontiff earlier and giving him a blessing to “be fruitful”. I took it to be a tacit plea for help in curbing the rampant secularization of their culture and encroachment of the Muslims into the very heart of English culture.

The Church in spite of media and special interest groups seems to be turning the corner now and getting back to taking back old turf. What a glorious day for the Church!

BF

 

[JReducation]

Thanks JR. I assumed something like this for the Orthodox but was unsure about the Anglicans who depart substantially from Catholic theology/faith and hold to a con-substantial view. I really wanted to observe the Archbishop of Canterbury receiving communion or asking for a blessing from the Pope - what a magnificent poster photo that would have made.

This was a monumental day for Catholics! Can anyone just imagine King Henry, King Edward, and King Elizabeth turning over in their graves to see the day that their sovereign England was forced by the social protocol and mores of the day to accommodate Catholics back in their original churches in England! OMG it felt like such justice. England had no way to stop Pope Benedict from conducting mass in one of the Catholic Church’s very own original churches without appearing as complete bigots in permitting Muslims and homosexual and every other fringe group in their modern secularist society to speak publicly.

To her credit I must say that The Queen was very generous in her comment in welcoming the pontiff earlier and giving him a blessing to “be fruitful”. I took it to be a tacit plea for help in curbing the rampant secularization of their culture and encroachment of the Muslims into the very heart of English culture.

The Church in spite of media and special interest groups seems to be turning the corner now and getting back to taking back old turf. What a glorious day for the Church!

BF

I too believe that it was beautiful to see the Holy Father celebrating mass at formerlly Catholic churches. But like our Holy Father Francis would say, I say to you and others too. Let us not gloat or be unkind. On the contrary, let us be humble and thank God for the consolations that he offers to those who deserve none.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[GraceSofia]

However, if you noticed, the Holy Father did refer to himself as the Successor of St. Peter and the Bishop of Rome several times, to the point that the Archbishop seemed to take note and made reference to it in his talk.
Br. JR, OSF

Yes! It was awesome-- he stood there and proclaimed the truth.

“This is the word of encouragement which I wish to leave with you this evening, and I do so in fidelity to my ministry as the Bishop of Rome and the Successor of Saint Peter, charged with a particular care for the unity of Christ’s flock.”

That was even better than saying the Catholic Church, IMO. Pope Velvet Glove.