Historical accuracy of the gospel of John

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Monarchianism = God is only one person (the same goes for Sabellianism/Modalism)

None of this, has nothing to do with, the Father being a spirit in the human Jesus Christ
And that’s the problem is I think. The Father did not become incarnate in Jesus Christ - the Son did. Jesus’ divine nature is not the Father - Jesus is the Son. Jesus had a human body and soul, in addition to being divine. Jesus did not have a human body yet a divine mind. He had a human body and human mind and soul in addition to His divinity. One person, two distinct unmingled natures, two wills corresponding to the two natures.

When Jesus says that the Father is with Him and that they are one, He did not mean that He is both the Father and the Son.
 
St. Augustine:

My judgment is true, says He, because I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me. Therefore, O Lord our God, Jesus Christ, Your sending is Your incarnation. So I see, so I understand: in short, so I believe, in case it may smack of arrogance to say, so I understand. Doubtless the Lord Jesus Christ is even here; rather, was here as to His flesh, is here now as to His Godhead: He was both with the Father and had not left the Father. Hence, in that He is said to have been sent and to have come to us, His incarnation is set forth to us, for the Father did not take flesh.

For there are certain heretics called Sabellians, who are also called Patripassians, who affirm that it was the Father Himself that had suffered. Do not thou so affirm, O Catholic; for if you will be a Patripassian, you will not be sane. Understand, then, that the incarnation of the Son is termed the sending of the Son; and do not believe that the Father was incarnate, but do not yet believe that He departed from the incarnate Son. The Son carried flesh, the Father was with the Son. If the Father was in heaven, the Son on earth, how was the Father with the Son? Because both Father and Son were everywhere: for God is not in such manner in heaven as not to be on earth (…) Hence He is everywhere, who is confined by no place. Turn not thou away from Him, and He is with you. If you would come to Him, be not slow to love; for it is not with feet but with affections you run. You come while remaining in one place, if you believe and lovest. Wherefore He is everywhere; and if everywhere, how not also with the Son? Is it so that He is not with the Son, while, if you believe, He is even with you?

How, then, is His judgment true, but because the Son is true? For this He said: And if I judge, my judgment is true; because I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me. Just as if He had said, My judgment is true, because I am the Son of God. How dost Thou prove that You are the Son of God? Because I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me. Blush, Sabellian; you hear the Son, you hear the Father. Father is Father, Son is Son. He said not, I am the Father, and I the same am the Son; but He says, I am not alone. Why are You not alone? Because the Father is with me. I am, and the Father that sent me; you hear, I am, and He that sent me. Lest thou lose sight of the person, distinguish the persons. Distin guish by understanding, do not separate by faithlessness; lest again, fleeing as it were Charybdis, thou rush upon Scylla. For the whirlpool of the impiety of the Sabellians was swallowing you, to say that the Father is the same who is Son: just now you have learned, I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me.

You acknowledge that the Father is Father, and that the Son is Son; you acknowledge rightly. But do not say the Father is greater, the Son is less; do not say, the Father is gold, the Son is silver. There is one substance, one Godhead, one co-eternity, perfect equality, no unlikeness. For if you only believe that Christ is another, not the same person that the Father is, but yet imagine that in respect of His nature He is somewhat different from the Father, you have indeed escaped Charybdis, but you have been wrecked on the rocks of Scylla. Steer the middle course, avoid each of the two perilous sides. Father is Father, Son is Son. You say now, Father is Father, Son is Son: you have fortunately escaped the danger of the absorbing whirl; why would you go unto the other side to say, the Father is this, the Son that? The Son is another person than the Father is, this you say rightly; but that He is different in nature, you say not rightly. Certainly the Son is another person, because He is not the same who is Father and the Father is another person, because He is not the same who is Son: nevertheless, they are not different in nature, but the selfsame is both Father and Son. What means the self-same? God is one.

You have heard, Because I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me: hear how you may believe Father and Son; hear the Son Himself, I and the Father are one. (John 10:30) He said not, I am the Father; or, I and the Father is one person; but when He says, I and the Father are one, hear both, both the one, unum, and the are, sumus, and you shall be delivered both from Charybdis and from Scylla.
 
…When Jesus says that the Father is with Him and that they are one, He did not mean that He is both the Father and the Son.
Of course not, the Son is flesh and blood, whereas the Father is spirit. But the Sons voice is the Father.
 
Of course not, the Son is flesh and blood, whereas the Father is spirit. But the Sons voice is the Father.
Are you using “Son” here to refer to Jesus’ human nature? (Just to avoid confusion, I used the term ‘Son’ to refer to the second person of the Trinity / to Jesus’ nature as God.)

I think it would be better and less confusing if you phrase it as the Son being incarnate, with the Father (and the Holy Spirit) being non-incarnate.

And I think you will agree the Son is not just flesh and blood. Body, blood, soul and divinity.
 
St. Augustine:

“My judgment is true, says He, because I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me.” Therefore, O Lord our God, Jesus Christ, Your sending is Your incarnation. So I see, so I understand: in short, so I believe, in case it may smack of arrogance to say, so I understand. Doubtless the Lord Jesus Christ is even here; rather, was here as to His flesh, is here now as to His Godhead: He was both with the Father and had not left the Father. Hence, in that He is said to have been sent and to have come to us, His incarnation is set forth to us, for the Father did not take flesh.

For there are certain heretics called Sabellians, who are also called Patripassians, who affirm that it was the Father Himself that had suffered. Do not thou so affirm, O Catholic; for if you will be a Patripassian, you will not be sane. Understand, then, that the incarnation of the Son is termed the sending of the Son; and do not believe that the Father was incarnate, but do not yet believe that He departed from the incarnate Son. The Son carried flesh, the Father was with the Son. If the Father was in heaven, the Son on earth, how was the Father with the Son? Because both Father and Son were everywhere: for God is not in such manner in heaven as not to be on earth.

Hear him who would flee from the judgment of God, and found not a way to flee by: “Whither shall I go,” says he, “from Your Spirit; and whither shall I flee from Your face? If I ascend up into heaven, You are there.” The question was about the earth; hear what follows: “If I descend unto hell, You are there.” If, then, He is said to be present even in hell, what in the universe remains where He is not present? For the voice of God with the prophet is, “I fill heaven and earth.” (Jeremiah 23:24) Hence He is everywhere, who is confined by no place. Turn not thou away from Him, and He is with you. If you would come to Him, be not slow to love; for it is not with feet but with affections you run. You come while remaining in one place, if you believe and lovest. Wherefore He is everywhere; and if everywhere, how not also with the Son? Is it so that He is not with the Son, while, if you believe, He is even with you?

How, then, is His judgment true, but because the Son is true? For this He said: “And if I judge, my judgment is true; because I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me.” Just as if He had said, ‘My judgment is true, because I am the Son of God.’ How dost Thou prove that You are the Son of God? “Because I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me.” Blush, Sabellian; you hear the Son, you hear the Father. Father is Father, Son is Son. He said not, ‘I am the Father,’ and ‘I the same am the Son’; but He says, “I am not alone.” Why are You not alone? Because the Father is with me. “I am, and the Father that sent me;” you hear, “I am, and He that sent me.” Lest thou lose sight of the person, distinguish the persons. Distinguish by understanding, do not separate by faithlessness; lest again, fleeing as it were Charybdis, thou rush upon Scylla. For the whirlpool of the impiety of the Sabellians was swallowing you, to say that the Father is the same who is Son: just now you have learned, “I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me.” You acknowledge that the Father is Father, and that the Son is Son; you acknowledge rightly. But do not say the Father is greater, the Son is less; do not say, the Father is gold, the Son is silver. There is one substance, one Godhead, one co-eternity, perfect equality, no unlikeness. For if you only believe that Christ is another, not the same person that the Father is, but yet imagine that in respect of His nature He is somewhat different from the Father, you have indeed escaped Charybdis, but you have been wrecked on the rocks of Scylla.

Steer the middle course, avoid each of the two perilous sides. Father is Father, Son is Son. You say now, Father is Father, Son is Son: you have fortunately escaped the danger of the absorbing whirl; why would you go unto the other side to say, the Father is this, the Son that? The Son is another person than the Father is, this you say rightly; but that He is different in nature, you say not rightly. Certainly the Son is another person, because He is not the same who is Father and the Father is another person, because He is not the same who is Son: nevertheless, they are not different in nature, but the selfsame is both Father and Son. What means the self-same? God is one. You have heard, “Because I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me:” hear how you may believe Father and Son; hear the Son Himself, “I and the Father are one.” (John 10:30) He said not, ‘I am the Father;’ or, ‘I and the Father is one person;’ but when He says, “I and the Father are one,” hear both, both the one, unum, and the are, sumus, and you shall be delivered both from Charybdis and from Scylla.

In these two words, in that He said one, He delivers you from Arius; in that He said are, He delivers you from Sabellius. If one, therefore not diverse; if are, therefore both Father and Son. For He would not say are of one person; but, on the other hand, He would not say one of diverse. Hence the reason why He says, “my judgment is true,” is, that you may hear it briefly, because I am the Son of God. But I would have you in such wise believe that I am the Son of God, that you may understand that the Father is with me: I am not Son in such manner as to have left Him; I am not in such manner here that I should not be with Him; nor is He in such manner there as not to be with me: I have taken to me the form of a servant, yet have I not lost the form of God; therefore He says, “I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me.”
 
But the Sons voice is the Father.
In a way, yes, in that the Son reveals the Father, the Son is the image of the invisible Father, and the Father and the Son are consubstantial, of the same essence/substance (homoousion) and therefore inseparable as two out of three persons in one God. “The Father has through generation given to the only-begotten Son everything that belongs to the Father, except being Father.”

The Father abides in Jesus in the sense that the Father and Son are equal (as God) and are of one and the same essence. That does not mean that the Father, the first person, was incarnate in Jesus along with the Son, the second person. I believe that is not what the Church teaches. That is borderline blurring the distinction - in this case - between the Father and the Son, who while being one and the same God, are at the same time really distinct from one another.

It is the Son, and only the Son, that became incarnate, not the Father or the Holy Spirit. The Father sent the Son.

How was the Son of God made man? --The Son of God was conceived and made man by the power of the Holy Ghost, in the womb of the Blessed Virgin Mary.

The Three persons of God cooperated in the Incarnation, but only the Second Person took on flesh: only He took to Himself a human nature.
  1. The Incarnation is peculiarly the work of the Blessed Trinity. They formed a human soul and a human body, and these they united to the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity: the result was Our Lord Jesus Christ, God-Man.
    To the power of the Holy Ghost we attribute the Incarnation, because the Third Person of the Blessed Trinity peculiarly expresses the Spirit of Love: and the Incarnation is the supreme example of God’s love for men.
  2. It was fitting that God the Son should become incarnate, rather than the Father or the Holy Ghost; for the Son proceeds from the Father, and could be sent by Him.
    God the Son then could, as the fruit of His Redemption, send God the Holy Ghost. Thus through the Son of God we became adopted sons of God.
 
When the Son says “the one who sent me is with me” (John 8:29) or “the Father who dwells in me does his works” (John 14:8)

He is referring to the Spirit inside him, his breath.

You can’t fit this into any of your isms
 
When the Son says “the one who sent me is with me” (John 8:29) or “the Father who dwells in me does his works” (John 14:8)

He is referring to the Spirit inside him, his breath.

You can’t fit this into any of your isms
So … the Father is the Holy Spirit? :confused:

That’s the problem - it doesn’t neatly fit into any ‘ism’ that it threatens to falling on a wrong one.

Can you please explain to us your Christology in detail? For our benefit, so we could have an idea of where you’re coming from.
 
PNEUMA;13989988:
When the Son says “the one who sent me is with me” (John 8:29) or “the Father who dwells in me does his works” (John 14:8)

He is referring to the Spirit inside him, his breath.

You can’t fit this into any of your isms
So … the Father is the Holy Spirit? :confused:

That’s the problem - it doesn’t neatly fit into any ‘ism’ that it threatens to falling on a wrong one.

Can you please explain to us your Christology in detail? For our benefit, so we could have an idea of where you’re coming from.
Why is this confusing you ? Both the Holy Spirit and the Father are Spirit (John 4:24)
 
Why is this confusing you ? Both the Holy Spirit and the Father are Spirit (John 4:24)
One question you’ve avoided several times, are you Catholic? I would also like to know how you developed these beliefs, if you don’t mind.
 
One question you’ve avoided several times, are you Catholic? I would also like to know how you developed these beliefs, if you don’t mind.
By participating in the Holy Catholic mass I have come to the firm belief that Jesus Christ is flesh and blood, not a spirit.
 
By participating in the Holy Catholic mass I have come to the firm belief that Jesus Christ is flesh and blood, not a spirit.
I don’t see any Catholic teaching that Jesus has two persons inside him.
 
PNEUMA;13990639:
By participating in the Holy Catholic mass I have come to the firm belief that Jesus Christ is flesh and blood, not a spirit.
I don’t see any Catholic teaching that Jesus has two persons inside him.
I think every Catholic know that The Holy Spirit dwells within us

ourladyoftherosary.org.au/blogs/deaks-diary-the-holy-spirit-dwells-within-us

I also think that every Catholic know that The Holy Spirit dwells in Jesus

It will all be clear to you, if you stop thinking that Jesus Christ is a spirit, that’s what confusing you.
 
Trinity is three persons in one being. Why would then two persons in one being, be a problem ?
I was focusing on your problem of not understanding how Jesus was the perfect reflection of the Father, because Jesus in not the Father. I know that there are three persons in the Trinity, I already covered this in detail in one of my posts. You had the problem, because the Bible did not say that Jesus was explicitly the reflection of the Father. By applying some logic, the meaning becomes evident, so the evidence was implicit in Jesus’ statement
 
I was focusing on your problem of not understanding how Jesus was the perfect reflection of the Father, because Jesus in not the Father. I know that there are three persons in the Trinity, I already covered this in detail in one of my posts. You had the problem, because the Bible did not say that Jesus was explicitly the reflection of the Father. By applying some logic, the meaning becomes evident, so the evidence was implicit in Jesus’ statement
Once again, Jesus does not say he is the Father, he says the Father dwells in him and speaks through him.

John 14:8 “Philip said to him, ‘Lord, show us the Father, and we will be satisfied.’ Jesus said to him, ‘Have I been with you all this time, Philip, and you still do not know me? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, “Show us the Father”? Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own; but the Father who dwells in me does his works.”
 
By participating in the Holy Catholic mass I have come to the firm belief that Jesus Christ is flesh and blood, not a spirit.
Well, yeah, Jesus Christ is flesh and blood. He is also God. Is it your belief that He is not? And you claim to have come to this position by participating in mass?
 
Once again, Jesus does not say he is the Father, he says the Father dwells in him and speaks through him.

John 14:8 "Philip said to him, ‘Lord, show us the Father, and we will be satisfied.’ Jesus said to him, ‘Have I been with you all this time, Philip, and you still do not know me? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, “Show us the Father”? Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own; but the Father who dwells in me does his works."
Then how do you justify the statement made by Jesus to Phillip “He who sees me, sees the Father.” Jesus can’t be the Father, so how is it possible? How can the Father be in Jesus, and Jesus be in the Father and remain distinct persons? Hint: The Father beholding Himself, begets the Son…by spiritual generation How does one in human terms beholds himself?

It is understood that Jesus, and the Father and the Holy Spirit are one God, but they are distinct, I already told you how in one of my posts. So Jesus is telling of His oneness with the Father, but again Jesus is not the Father…so back to the original problem above.
 
Well, yeah, Jesus Christ is flesh and blood. He is also God. Is it your belief that He is not? And you claim to have come to this position by participating in mass?
Yes, Jesus Christ is definitely flesh and blood, but his spirit is God.
 
PNEUMA;13991081:
Once again, Jesus does not say he is the Father, he says the Father dwells in him and speaks through him.

John 14:8
"Philip said to him, ‘Lord, show us the Father, and we will be satisfied.’ Jesus said to him, ‘Have I been with you all this time, Philip, and you still do not know me? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, “Show us the Father”? Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own; but the Father who dwells in me does his works."Then how do you justify the statement made by Jesus to Phillip “He who sees me, sees the Father.” Jesus can’t be the Father, so how is it possible? How can the Father be in Jesus, and Jesus be in the Father and remain distinct persons? …
Easy, the Father is spirit, Jesus is not.

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