Historical accuracy of the gospel of John

[PNEUMA]

Yeah, I think so.

To PNEUMA: Let me just make clear that I personally couldn’t care less where the Antonia and the Temple exactly stood in the 1st century. I just want you to show me proof that there was a Byzantine-era church on the Dome of the Rock (where you believe the Antonia to be), and that this church was the Hagia Sophia (aka St. Sophia) referred to by the Byzantine pilgrim accounts as the church that stood over what they believed then to be the Praetorium. Because that’s essentially where your argument is leading - will lead - since you quoted the Bordeaux pilgrim and the Piacenza pilgrim.

Ok, patrick457 I will show you proof of a Byzantine church on the site of Dome of the Rock

First I show you the ruins of a Byzantine octagon church in Capernaum build about 450 AD

http://www.capernaum.custodia.org/img/news/1735.jpg

then I show you the ruins of a Byzantine octagon church on the road to Bethlehem build 458 AD



then I show you the ruins of a Byzantine octagon church on Mount Gerizim build 484 AD

http://www.usc.edu/dept/LAS/arc/neapolis/gerizsummit.gif

and lastly I show you the Byzantine octagon church on Mount Moriah build around the same time as the other Byzantine octagon churches

http://www.bibleplaces.com/newslett...and_Western_Wall_aerial_from_sw,_mat13688.jpg

You have been told, that this last octagon building was build by a muslim in 691 AD, whereas in fact it was only reconstructed/rebuildt by a muslim in 691 AD after its destruction by non-muslims in 614 AD

The octagon churches normally looked like this,

http://www.capernaum.custodia.org/img/news/1756.png

 

[JB_Brother_4446]

Ok, patrick457 I will show you proof of a Byzantine church on the site of Dome of the Rock

First I show you the ruins of a Byzantine octagon church in Capernaum build about 450 AD

http://www.capernaum.custodia.org/img/news/1735.jpg

then I show you the ruins of a Byzantine octagon church on the road to Bethlehem build 458 AD

http://www.tau.ac.il/~rmtrachl/images/identifying_rr_2.jpg

then I show you the ruins of a Byzantine octagon church on Mount Gerizim build 484 AD

http://www.usc.edu/dept/LAS/arc/neapolis/gerizsummit.gif

and lastly I show you the Byzantine octagon church on Mount Moriah build around the same time as the other Byzantine octagon churches

http://www.bibleplaces.com/newslett...and_Western_Wall_aerial_from_sw,_mat13688.jpg

You have been told, that this last octagon building was build by a muslim in 691 AD, whereas in fact it was only reconstructed/rebuildt by a muslim in 691 AD after its destruction by non-muslims in 614 AD

The octagon churches normally looked like this,

http://www.capernaum.custodia.org/img/news/1756.png

We have sources indicating Herod’s palace as Pilate’s residence in Jerusalem. One of them is Philo of Alexandria.

 

[PNEUMA]

We have sources indicating Herod’s palace as Pilate’s residence in Jerusalem. One of them is Philo of Alexandria.

We also have sources indicating that Jesus was brought from Pilate’s court to Herod’s court and then back to Pilate’s court for judgment (there was a questions about jurisdiction)

Philo Judaeus (died 50 AD) doesn’t say a word about Pilate’s judgment of Jesus. And has a completely different Logos philosophy than St. John. Philo says Logos is the son of God, whereas John says Logos is God that everything began with.

 

[JB_Brother_4446]

We also have sources indicating that Jesus was brought from Pilate’s court to Herod’s court and then back to Pilate’s court for judgment (there was a questions about jurisdiction)

Philo Judaeus (died 50 AD) doesn’t say a word about Pilate’s judgment of Jesus. And has a completely different Logos philosophy than St. John. Philo says Logos is the son of God, whereas John says Logos is God that everything began with.

We were discussing Pilate’s praetorium. And the Word is Jesus, Only-Begotten of God the Father.

 

[PNEUMA]

We were discussing Pilate’s praetorium. And the Word is Jesus, Only-Begotten of God the Father.

Pilate’s court refers to the trial of Jesus in praetorium before Pontius Pilate.

The Word is God (John 1:1) God is spirit (John 4:24)

The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life (John 6:63)

The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own; but the Father who dwells in me does his works. (John 14:10)

Out of the believer’s heart shall flow rivers of living water.’” Now he said this about the Spirit, which believers in him were to receive (John 7:38)

Jesus Christ is not a spirit, he is a glorified human.

youtube.com/watch?v=W8jQDunF8wc

 

[JB_Brother_4446]

Jesus Christ is not a spirit, he is a glorified human.

What did Thomas say to Jesus when He appeared to him? “My Lord and my God!” So was St. Thomas a liar when he acknowledged Jesus’ divinity?

 

[PNEUMA]

What did Thomas say to Jesus when He appeared to him? “My Lord and my God!” So was St. Thomas a liar when he acknowledged Jesus’ divinity?

The spirit of Jesus is God. That’s why St. Thomas says my God.

The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life (John 6:63)

The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own; but the Father who dwells in me does his works. (John 14:10)

God is spirit (John 4:24)

Jesus Christ is not a spirit youtube.com/watch?v=W8jQDunF8wc

 

[JB_Brother_4446]

The spirit of Jesus is God. That’s why St. Thomas says my God.

The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life (John 6:63)

The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own; but the Father who dwells in me does his works. (John 14:10)

God is spirit (John 4:24)

Jesus Christ is not a spirit youtube.com/watch?v=W8jQDunF8wc

Jesus is True God and True Man. So it is correct to call Jesus God.

 

[PNEUMA]

Jesus is True God and True Man. So it is correct to call Jesus God.

You completely misunderstand the gospel of John.

The Pharisees do not understand, there are two persons in Jesus

John 8:16 “my judgement is valid; for it is not I alone who judge, but I and the Father who sent me. In your law it is written that the testimony of two witnesses is valid”

St. Philip do not understand, there are two persons in Jesus

John 14:8 “Philip said to him, ‘Lord, show us the Father, and we will be satisfied.’ Jesus said to him, ‘Have I been with you all this time, Philip, and you still do not know me? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, “Show us the Father”? Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me?”

St. Thomas however, understand there are two persons in Jesus

John 20:28 “Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!””

 

[ynotzap]

You completely misunderstand the gospel of John.

The Pharisees do not understand, there are two persons in Jesus

John 8:16 “my judgement is valid; for it is not I alone who judge, but I and the Father who sent me. In your law it is written that the testimony of two witnesses is valid”

St. Philip do not understand, there are two persons in Jesus

John 14:8 “Philip said to him, ‘Lord, show us the Father, and we will be satisfied.’ Jesus said to him, ‘Have I been with you all this time, Philip, and you still do not know me? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, “Show us the Father”? Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me?”

St. Thomas however, understand there are two persons in Jesus

John 20:28 “Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!””

One of the doctrines of the Catholic Church is the Hypostatic Union. Jesus has two natures, one human, one divine. He was only one person, a divine person. In his divine nature He is God. Another doctrine of the Catholic Church is the Trinity, there are three persons in God, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, but One God, all are co-equal in divinity. So beside Jesus, there are two other persons united with Him, the Father and the Holy Spirit. Jesus is the perfect reflection of the Father, and begotten of the Father, and the love that exists between them begets the Holy Spirit.

 

[PNEUMA]

One of the doctrines of the Catholic Church is the Hypostatic Union. Jesus has two natures, one human, one divine. He was only one person, a divine person. In his divine nature He is God. Another doctrine of the Catholic Church is the Trinity, there are three persons in God, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, but One God, all are co-equal in divinity. So beside Jesus, there are two other persons united with Him, the Father and the Holy Spirit. Jesus is the perfect reflection of the Father, and begotten of the Father, and the love that exists between them begets the Holy Spirit.

I did not say Jesus is two persons, I said the Father is one person and the Son is one person, that is two persons. And both persons are present in Jesus.

John 14:8-10 "Philip said to him, ‘Lord, show us the Father, and we will be satisfied.’ Jesus said to him, ‘Have I been with you all this time, Philip, and you still do not know me? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, “Show us the Father”? Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own; but the Father who dwells in me does his works."

God is the spirit of Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is not a spirit, he is a glorified human.

youtube.com/watch?v=W8jQDunF8wc

 

[ynotzap]

I did not say Jesus is two persons, I said the Father is one person and the Son is one person, that is two persons. And both persons are present in Jesus.

John 14:8-10 "Philip said to him, ‘Lord, show us the Father, and we will be satisfied.’ Jesus said to him, ‘Have I been with you all this time, Philip, and you still do not know me? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, “Show us the Father”? Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own; but the Father who dwells in me does his works."

God is the spirit of Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is not a spirit, he is a glorified human.

youtube.com/watch?v=W8jQDunF8wc

Jesus Christ is the Word Incarnate, Jesus Christ is God-man, the Second person of the Blessed Trinity. Jesus Christ was not a human person, but a Divine Person with human nature, there is a difference… I don’t expect you to accept this, because it is not found explicitly in scripture but arrived at by theology and scholastic philosophy. Jesus was human in every way except sin. So you hold to your belief and I hold to mine which is consistent with Catholic doctrine. My understanding is that Jesus was not glorified until He resurrected with a glorified spiritualized body

 

[PNEUMA]

Jesus Christ is the Word Incarnate, Jesus Christ is God-man, the Second person of the Blessed Trinity. Jesus Christ was not a human person, but a Divine Person with human nature, there is a difference… I don’t expect you to accept this, because it is not found explicitly in scripture but arrived at by theology and scholastic philosophy. Jesus was human in every way except sin. So you hold to your belief and I hold to mine which is consistent with Catholic doctrine. My understanding is that Jesus was not glorified until He resurrected with a glorified spiritualized body

You are trying to make Jesus less human and more spirit (spiritualized ) in order to make him more like God for some reason ?

God is spirit, Jesus is flesh and blood human. That Jesus Christ is not a spirit, but a human is a Catholic doctrine youtube.com/watch?v=W8jQDunF8wc The flesh and blood Jesus, stands at the center of Catholic belief.

Nothing existed before the Word, the Word is God the Father, the origin of all things.

 

[JB_Brother_4446]

You completely misunderstand the gospel of John.

The Pharisees do not understand, there are two persons in Jesus

John 8:16 “my judgement is valid; for it is not I alone who judge, but I and the Father who sent me. In your law it is written that the testimony of two witnesses is valid”

St. Philip do not understand, there are two persons in Jesus

John 14:8 “Philip said to him, ‘Lord, show us the Father, and we will be satisfied.’ Jesus said to him, ‘Have I been with you all this time, Philip, and you still do not know me? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, “Show us the Father”? Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me?”

St. Thomas however, understand there are two persons in Jesus

John 20:28 “Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!””

Are you Catholic? Do you even understand the hypostatic union?

 

[JB_Brother_4446]

You are trying to make Jesus less human and more spirit (spiritualized ) in order to make him more like God for some reason ?

God is spirit, Jesus is flesh and blood human. That Jesus Christ is not a spirit, but a human is a Catholic doctrine youtube.com/watch?v=W8jQDunF8wc The flesh and blood Jesus, stands at the center of Catholic belief.

Nothing existed before the Word, the Word is God the Father, the origin of all things.

The Word is the Son.

 

[PNEUMA]

The Word is the Son.

No, in the beginning was the Word (God) that became or gave birth to the Son, Jesus Christ. There are therefore two persons in Jesus, the Father and the Son, and they are one.

 

[PNEUMA]

PNEUMA;13979114:

You completely misunderstand the gospel of John.

The Pharisees do not understand, there are two persons in Jesus

John 8:16

“my judgement is valid; for it is not I alone who judge, but I and the Father who sent me. In your law it is written that the testimony of two witnesses is valid”

St. Philip do not understand, there are two persons in Jesus

John 14:8 “Philip said to him, ‘Lord, show us the Father, and we will be satisfied.’ Jesus said to him, ‘Have I been with you all this time, Philip, and you still do not know me? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, “Show us the Father”? Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me?”

St. Thomas however, understand there are two persons in Jesus

John 20:28 *“Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!””*Are you Catholic? Do you even understand the hypostatic union?

Yes, that’s about Christ’s two natures. The testimony of two witnesses (John 8:16) is not the testimony of Christ’s two natures, if that’s what you think ?

The Father and the Son (two persons) are present in Jesus Christ, that’s what the gospel of John says.

 

[JB_Brother_4446]

Yes, that’s about Christ’s two natures. The testimony of two witnesses (John 8:16) is not the testimony of Christ’s two natures, if that’s what you think ?

The Father and the Son (two persons) are present in Jesus Christ, that’s what the gospel of John says.

Nope.

 

[JB_Brother_4446]

No, in the beginning was the Word (God) that became or gave birth to the Son, Jesus Christ. There are therefore two persons in Jesus, the Father and the Son, and they are one.

John says, “The Word was with God and the Word was God.” Jesus the Logos, the Word incarnate.

 

[PNEUMA]

PNEUMA;13981022:

JB Brother 4446;13980850:

Are you Catholic? Do you even understand the hypostatic union?

Yes, that’s about Christ’s two natures. The testimony of two witnesses (John 8:16) is not the testimony of Christ’s two natures, if that’s what you think ?

The Father and the Son (two persons) are present in Jesus Christ, that’s what the gospel of John says.Nope.

Even if the Pharisees and the Apostles don’t see the Father, Jesus says “the one who sent me is with me” (John 8:29) That’s because the Father is the word they hear, the spirit of Jesus, the breath of Jesus. The Father dwells in Jesus (John 14:10) it is the Father, that is doing all the miracles. That’s what the gospel of John says.

It may be hard to grasp, but the Father was right there, in Jesus.