Historical Christianity is One, Holy, Catholic, & Apostolic Church

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So why not belong to a Church that has men in these positions, who were ordained according to the authority of their predecessors, going back to the time of the Apostles? 🤷

(A man who claims authority on his own authority does not actually have any authority - authority can only be received from authority.)
Apostolic succession is not biblical. The office of an apostle, cannot have a successor. Apostles must have seen the risen Lord, that is what Paul said. Yes, they set up positions and some Apostles placed men in those positions. Your two earliest documents, Didache and 1st Clement, both specifially state that the church gets to decide the leadership of the church based upon a vote. The issue is not so much Apostolic Succession, an apostle can and did appoint people in some cases. They must have a sound doctrine in many other criteria. Its a rather complicated topic.
 
So why not belong to a Church that has men in these positions, who were ordained according to the authority of their predecessors, going back to the time of the Apostles? 🤷

(**A man who claims authority on his own authority does not actually have any authority - authority can only be received from authority.)/**quote]

I lLIKE that! Mind if steal it for future use?😃
 
It is a Catholic Book. It was the Catholic Church in Synod of Hippo in 393 AD that had a listed 46 OT and 27 NT. The same list came about in the Council of Carthage in 397 AD.
That is YOUR canon, not mine.
 
Apostolic succession is not biblical. The office of an apostle, cannot have a successor. Apostles must have seen the risen Lord, that is what Paul said. Yes, they set up positions and some Apostles placed men in those positions. Your two earliest documents, Didache and 1st Clement, both specifially state that the church gets to decide the leadership of the church based upon a vote. The issue is not so much Apostolic Succession, an apostle can and did appoint people in some cases. They must have a sound doctrine in many other criteria. Its a rather complicated topic.
Wrong it is Biblical

II. Authority is Transferred by the Sacrament of Ordination

Acts 1:15-26 - the first thing Peter does after Jesus ascends into heaven is implement apostolic succession. Matthias is ordained with full apostolic authority. Only the Catholic Church can demonstrate an unbroken apostolic lineage to the apostles in union with Peter through the sacrament of ordination and thereby claim to teach with Christ’s own authority.

Acts 1:20 - a successor of Judas is chosen. The authority of his office (his “bishopric”) is respected notwithstanding his egregious sin. The necessity to have apostolic succession in order for the Church to survive was understood by all. God never said, “I’ll give you leaders with authority for about 400 years, but after the Bible is compiled, you are all on your own.”

Acts 1:22 - literally, “one must be ordained” to be a witness with us of His resurrection. Apostolic ordination is required in order to teach with Christ’s authority.

Acts 6:6 - apostolic authority is transferred through the laying on of hands (ordination). This authority has transferred beyond the original twelve apostles as the Church has grown.

Acts 9:17-19 - even Paul, who was directly chosen by Christ, only becomes a minister after the laying on of hands by a bishop. This is a powerful proof-text for the necessity of sacramental ordination in order to be a legitimate successor of the apostles.

Acts 13:3 - apostolic authority is transferred through the laying on of hands (ordination). This authority must come from a Catholic bishop.

Acts 14:23 - the apostles and newly-ordained men appointed elders to have authority throughout the Church.

Acts 15:22-27 - preachers of the Word must be sent by the bishops in union with the Church. We must trace this authority to the apostles.

2 Cor. 1:21-22 - Paul writes that God has commissioned certain men and sealed them with the Holy Spirit as a guarantee.

Col 1:25 - Paul calls his position a divine “office.” An office has successors. It does not terminate at death. Or it’s not an office. See also Heb. 7:23 – an office continues with another successor after the previous office-holder’s death.

1 Tim. 3:1 - Paul uses the word “episcopoi” (bishop) which requires an office. Everyone understood that Paul’s use of episcopoi and office meant it would carry on after his death by those who would succeed him.

1 Tim. 4:14 - again, apostolic authority is transferred through the laying on of hands (ordination).

1 Tim. 5:22 - Paul urges Timothy to be careful in laying on the hands (ordaining others). The gift of authority is a reality and cannot be used indiscriminately.

2 Tim. 1:6 - Paul again reminds Timothy the unique gift of God that he received through the laying on of hands.

2 Tim. 4:1-6 - at end of Paul’s life, Paul charges Timothy with the office of his ministry . We must trace true apostolic lineage back to a Catholic bishop.

2 Tim. 2:2 - this verse shows God’s intention is to transfer authority to successors (here, Paul to Timothy to 3rd to 4th generation). It goes beyond the death of the apostles.

Titus 1:5; Luke 10:1 - the elders of the Church are appointed and hold authority. God has His children participate in Christ’s work.

1 John 4:6 - whoever knows God listens to us (the bishops and the successors to the apostles). This is the way we discern truth and error (not just by reading the Bible and interpreting it for ourselves).
 
Wrong it is Biblical

II. Authority is Transferred by the Sacrament of Ordination

Acts 1:15-26 - the first thing Peter does after Jesus ascends into heaven is implement apostolic succession. Matthias is ordained with full apostolic authority. Only the Catholic Church can demonstrate an unbroken apostolic lineage to the apostles in union with Peter through the sacrament of ordination and thereby claim to teach with Christ’s own authority.

Acts 1:20 - a successor of Judas is chosen. The authority of his office (his “bishopric”) is respected notwithstanding his egregious sin. The necessity to have apostolic succession in order for the Church to survive was understood by all. God never said, “I’ll give you leaders with authority for about 400 years, but after the Bible is compiled, you are all on your own.”

Acts 1:22 - literally, “one must be ordained” to be a witness with us of His resurrection. Apostolic ordination is required in order to teach with Christ’s authority.

Acts 6:6 - apostolic authority is transferred through the laying on of hands (ordination). This authority has transferred beyond the original twelve apostles as the Church has grown.

Acts 9:17-19 - even Paul, who was directly chosen by Christ, only becomes a minister after the laying on of hands by a bishop. This is a powerful proof-text for the necessity of sacramental ordination in order to be a legitimate successor of the apostles.

Acts 13:3 - apostolic authority is transferred through the laying on of hands (ordination). This authority must come from a Catholic bishop.

Acts 14:23 - the apostles and newly-ordained men appointed elders to have authority throughout the Church.

Acts 15:22-27 - preachers of the Word must be sent by the bishops in union with the Church. We must trace this authority to the apostles.

2 Cor. 1:21-22 - Paul writes that God has commissioned certain men and sealed them with the Holy Spirit as a guarantee.

Col 1:25 - Paul calls his position a divine “office.” An office has successors. It does not terminate at death. Or it’s not an office. See also Heb. 7:23 – an office continues with another successor after the previous office-holder’s death.

1 Tim. 3:1 - Paul uses the word “episcopoi” (bishop) which requires an office. Everyone understood that Paul’s use of episcopoi and office meant it would carry on after his death by those who would succeed him.

1 Tim. 4:14 - again, apostolic authority is transferred through the laying on of hands (ordination).

1 Tim. 5:22 - Paul urges Timothy to be careful in laying on the hands (ordaining others). The gift of authority is a reality and cannot be used indiscriminately.

2 Tim. 1:6 - Paul again reminds Timothy the unique gift of God that he received through the laying on of hands.

2 Tim. 4:1-6 - at end of Paul’s life, Paul charges Timothy with the office of his ministry . We must trace true apostolic lineage back to a Catholic bishop.

2 Tim. 2:2 - this verse shows God’s intention is to transfer authority to successors (here, Paul to Timothy to 3rd to 4th generation). It goes beyond the death of the apostles.

Titus 1:5; Luke 10:1 - the elders of the Church are appointed and hold authority. God has His children participate in Christ’s work.

1 John 4:6 - whoever knows God listens to us (the bishops and the successors to the apostles). This is the way we discern truth and error (not just by reading the Bible and interpreting it for ourselves).
You did not get a single interpretation correct. Who wrote this? It has to be the single worst interpretation of a group of verses I have ever read…and that includes some pretty shady groups!
 
Wrong it is Biblical

II. Authority is Transferred by the Sacrament of Ordination

Acts 1:15-26 - the first thing Peter does after Jesus ascends into heaven is implement apostolic succession. Matthias is ordained with full apostolic authority. Only the Catholic Church can demonstrate an unbroken apostolic lineage to the apostles in union with Peter through the sacrament of ordination and thereby claim to teach with Christ’s own authority.

Acts 1:20 - a successor of Judas is chosen. The authority of his office (his “bishopric”) is respected notwithstanding his egregious sin. The necessity to have apostolic succession in order for the Church to survive was understood by all. God never said, “I’ll give you leaders with authority for about 400 years, but after the Bible is compiled, you are all on your own.”

Acts 1:22 - literally, “one must be ordained” to be a witness with us of His resurrection. Apostolic ordination is required in order to teach with Christ’s authority.

Acts 6:6 - apostolic authority is transferred through the laying on of hands (ordination). This authority has transferred beyond the original twelve apostles as the Church has grown.

Acts 9:17-19 - even Paul, who was directly chosen by Christ, only becomes a minister after the laying on of hands by a bishop. This is a powerful proof-text for the necessity of sacramental ordination in order to be a legitimate successor of the apostles.

Acts 13:3 - apostolic authority is transferred through the laying on of hands (ordination). This authority must come from a Catholic bishop.

Acts 14:23 - the apostles and newly-ordained men appointed elders to have authority throughout the Church.

Acts 15:22-27 - preachers of the Word must be sent by the bishops in union with the Church. We must trace this authority to the apostles.

2 Cor. 1:21-22 - Paul writes that God has commissioned certain men and sealed them with the Holy Spirit as a guarantee.

Col 1:25 - Paul calls his position a divine “office.” An office has successors. It does not terminate at death. Or it’s not an office. See also Heb. 7:23 – an office continues with another successor after the previous office-holder’s death.

1 Tim. 3:1 - Paul uses the word “episcopoi” (bishop) which requires an office. Everyone understood that Paul’s use of episcopoi and office meant it would carry on after his death by those who would succeed him.

1 Tim. 4:14 - again, apostolic authority is transferred through the laying on of hands (ordination).

1 Tim. 5:22 - Paul urges Timothy to be careful in laying on the hands (ordaining others). The gift of authority is a reality and cannot be used indiscriminately.

2 Tim. 1:6 - Paul again reminds Timothy the unique gift of God that he received through the laying on of hands.

2 Tim. 4:1-6 - at end of Paul’s life, Paul charges Timothy with the office of his ministry . We must trace true apostolic lineage back to a Catholic bishop.

2 Tim. 2:2 - this verse shows God’s intention is to transfer authority to successors (here, Paul to Timothy to 3rd to 4th generation). It goes beyond the death of the apostles.

Titus 1:5; Luke 10:1 - the elders of the Church are appointed and hold authority. God has His children participate in Christ’s work.

1 John 4:6 - whoever knows God listens to us (the bishops and the successors to the apostles). This is the way we discern truth and error (not just by reading the Bible and interpreting it for ourselves).
Exactly
 
Let us talk extrabiblical, if the early tradition said that an apostle had to lay hands on someone, or one of his successors, why do the Didache and 1st Clement, the earliest Christian writings, directly contradict that?
 
That is YOUR canon, not mine.
Your Canon rejected the 7 Deutrocanonical Books in the OT. Your OT only have 39 OT.

The Protestant Churches have continued to exclude the deutero writings from their canons, classifying them as “Apocrypha”. Presbyterians and Calvinists in general, especially since the Westminster Synod of 1648, have been the most ncompromising enemies of any recognition, and owing to their influence the British and Foreign Bible Society decided in 1826 to refuse to distribute Bibles containing the Apocrypha. Since that time the publication of the deuterocanonicals as an appendix to Protestant Bibles has almost entirely ceased in English-speaking countries. The books still supply lessons for the liturgy of the Church of England, but the number has been lessened by the hostile agitation. There is an Apocrypha appendix to the British Revised Version, in a separate volume. The deuteros are still appended to the German Bibles printed under the auspices of the orthodox Lutherans.

Before 1648, the Deutrocanonical Books were in the back of the Bible in the Appendix. Even the original King James Bible have it.

Second, the NT would not consider canonical had it not been with the authority of the Catholic Church. Whether you deny this, or not, this is fact. This is history. The Church gave you the Bible. More specifically the Catholic Church.
 
You did not get a single interpretation correct. Who wrote this? It has to be the single worst interpretation of a group of verses I have ever read…and that includes some pretty shady groups!
Alright guys. He has no intention of discussing anything. I suggest you go read The Hobbit . You will find him turning to stone when the sun comes up.

I’m out of here.
 
Your Canon rejected the 7 Deutrocanonical Books in the OT. Your OT only have 39 OT.

The Protestant Churches have continued to exclude the deutero writings from their canons, classifying them as “Apocrypha”. Presbyterians and Calvinists in general, especially since the Westminster Synod of 1648, have been the most ncompromising enemies of any recognition, and owing to their influence the British and Foreign Bible Society decided in 1826 to refuse to distribute Bibles containing the Apocrypha. Since that time the publication of the deuterocanonicals as an appendix to Protestant Bibles has almost entirely ceased in English-speaking countries. The books still supply lessons for the liturgy of the Church of England, but the number has been lessened by the hostile agitation. There is an Apocrypha appendix to the British Revised Version, in a separate volume. The deuteros are still appended to the German Bibles printed under the auspices of the orthodox Lutherans.

Before 1648, the Deutrocanonical Books were in the back of the Bible in the Appendix. Even the original King James Bible have it.

Second, the NT would not consider canonical had it not been with the authority of the Catholic Church. Whether you deny this, or not, this is fact. This is history. The Church gave you the Bible. More specifically the Catholic Church.
Claiming credit for what God did. The earliest Christians were not Catholic. Say it 1000 times and you will STILL be wrong. It is not history. No way. None of the early Christian writers said that the church made something scripture. Name one ECF who said that, you cannot. They were referring to things as scripture long before some little council in Africa. You guys have the faith of a mustard seed.
 
Let us talk extrabiblical, if the early tradition said that an apostle had to lay hands on someone, or one of his successors, why do the Didache and 1st Clement, the earliest Christian writings, directly contradict that?
What contradictions are you talking about? Point them out.
 
What contradictions are you talking about? Point them out.
Why do I always have to look up the information on this thread??
Geez…ok, I would think you would know this since you guys like those books so much.
 
Claiming credit for what God did. The earliest Christians were not Catholic. Say it 1000 times and you will STILL be wrong. It is not history. No way. None of the early Christian writers said that the church made something scripture. Name one ECF who said that, you cannot. They were referring to things as scripture long before some little council in Africa. You guys have the faith of a mustard seed.
The Church inspired by the Holy Spirit canonized Scripture. I already mention the Synods which proclaim this. You on the other hand have not. You have only provided your opinions.

I believe. St. Augustine of Hippo said this. You said name one Church Father that said that. Augustine did.

“I would not believe in **the Gospel myself if the authority **of the Catholic Church did not influence me to do so.”
Against the letter of Mani, 5,6, 397 A.D.

I have a faith in Jesus Christ who established One Church. His Church is Catholic. You cannot separate the Bride and the Groom. Bride being the Church and the Groom being Christ. The two are not two flesh but One.

The Church and Jesus are One. Jesus is the Head, and the Church is the Mystical Body. The Church established by Christ is also universal and its Catholic. I believe this to be true because Jesus made it SO!

HE WHO HEARS YOU! HEARS ME, HE WHO REJECTS YOU REJECTS ME. HE WHO REJECTS ME, REJECTS THE ONE WHO SENT ME. Jesus said this to his Apostles. When the Church speaks Jesus speaks. I would rather not go against the Catholic Church which has 2,000 yrs of rich Biblical History than become Protestant.
 
First of the Didache says nothing about Apostolic succession it says you must test the apostles
3 And concerning the Apostles and Prophets, act thus according to the ordinance of the Gospel. 4 Let every Apostle who comes to you be received as the Lord, 5 but let him not stay more than one day, or if need be a second as well; but if he stay three days, he is a false prophet. 6 And when an Apostle goes forth let him accept nothing but bread till he reach his night’s lodging; but if he ask for money, he is a false prophet.
7 Do not test or examine any prophet who is speaking in a spirit, “for every sin shall be forgiven, but this sin shall not be forgiven.” 8 But not everyone who speaks in a spirit is a prophet, except he have the behaviour of the Lord. From his behaviour, then, the false prophet and the true prophet shall be known.
9 And no prophet who orders a meal in a spirit shall eat of it: otherwise he is a false prophet. 10 And every prophet who teaches the truth, if he do not what he teaches, is a false prophet.
11 But no prophet who has been tried and is genuine, though he enact a worldly mystery of the Church, if he teach not others to do what he does himself, shall be judged by you: for he has his judgment with God, for so also did the prophets of old. 12 But whosoever shall say in a spirit `Give me money, or something else,’ you shall not listen to him; but if he tell you to give on behalf of others in want, let none judge him.
and of course the biggie:
Appoint therefore for yourselves bishops and deacons worthy of the Lord, meek men, and not lovers of money, and truthful and approved, for they also minister to you the ministry of the prophets and teachers. 2 Therefore do not despise them, for they are your honourable men together with the prophets and teachers.
 
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