Historical evidence for self-authenticating scripture?

[mcq72]

Jesus never enunciates a biblical canon, nor did any of the apostles).

This should tell us something. Why is it the Jews never found it necesary to " enunciate" a canon , and Jesus a d the apostles had no problem with that?

 

[BartholomewB]

After the reading of the Law and the Prophets, the synagogue officials sent word to them, “My brothers, if one of you has a word of exhortation for the people, please speak.” (Acts 13:15)

The expression “the Law and the Prophets” designates the Jewish canon of scripture.

 

[adf417]

This should tell us something. Why is it the Jews never found it necesary to " enunciate" a canon , and Jesus a d the apostles had no problem with that?

I would suspect it is because he, Jesus, left us a church. That is why we say the church gave us the canon and it would not be whole without the church.

Peace!!!

 

[mcq72]

I would suspect it is because he, Jesus, left us a church. That is why we say the church gave us the canon and it would not be whole without the church.

This should tell us something. Why is it the Jews never found it necesary to " enunciate" a canon , and Jesus a d the apostles had no problem with that?

Actually I was referring to the old testament , and perhaps part of new that had been written. That is jesus and apostles cite scripture several hundred times , all non canonized OT (some Pauline letters) ( not saying there was not an informal consensus).

So while not sure self authenticating is the real question, rather does God work informally upon the hearts of men (Jewish/Christian obviously, the “receivers” of His oracles) to receive and discern as such .

So yes Jesus left us a church body to discern and receive His Writ, just as earlier he had a nation to to do such.

 

[mcq72]

The expression “the Law and the Prophets” designates the Jewish canon of scripture.

and everything written about me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.”
(Luke 24:44 ESV)

Jesus quotes, refers to psalms I think more than any other book (11 times?),deuteronomy 10 times, Isaiah 8, exodus 7

 

[BartholomewB]

Jesus quotes, refers to psalms I think more than any other book (11 times?),deuteronomy 10 times, Isaiah 8, exodus 7

Fr. Felix Just’s website has a list of quotations and allusions to OT verses found in the NT, adding up to around 350. But that is for the whole of the NT, not just words spoken by Jesus. If you have seen a list of the references that have been identified in Jesus’ own words in the Gospels, do you have a link to that? Thanks!

http://catholic-resources.org/Bible/Quotations-NT-OT.htm

http://catholic-resources.org/Bible/Quotations-OT-NT.htm

 

[Kaninchen]

The expression “the Law and the Prophets” designates the Jewish canon of scripture.

The Tanakh consists of Law (Torah)/Prophets (Nevi’im)/Writings (Ketuvim) so, technically-speaking, “the Law and the Prophets” would not include: Psalms, Proverbs, Job, Song of Songs, Ruth, Lamentations, Ecclesiastes, Esther, Daniel, Ezra/Nehemiah and Chronicles.

 

[BartholomewB]

I think we’re in agreement about that, though it’s difficult to be sure about which books, exactly, already enjoyed canonical status in the Herodian period.

Book of Psalms Negated by New Testament Sacred Scripture

Please forgive a pedantic quibble, but the Psalms are not in either the Law or the Prophets. They’re in the Writings. The Hebrew Bible, in Jewish use, is divided into three sections. From what I’ve read, I believe the first two sections were already set in canonical form in the Herodian period, but the third not until some years later. That doesn’t mean, of course, that individual books in that section were held to be unsuitable in any way. The first book in the Writings section is Psalms, freq…

 

[Kaninchen]

I think we’re in agreement about that, though it’s difficult to be sure about which books, exactly, already enjoyed canonical status in the Herodian period.

I was just making a technical observation.

Watching Christians discussing this topic over the years, I’ve often been struck by the thought that the significance of ‘canon’ is different - it’s oversimplifying to say that it’s just another feature of the Orthodoxy v’s Orthopraxy outlooks of the two religions but, at core, it’s true, scripture is ‘used’ differently and serves different purposes.

Quite why ‘our’ canon is of such great significance in intra-Christian discussions is puzzling at times.

 

[BartholomewB]

Slightly off topic, but do you know anything about the fragments of the Hebrew Tobit found among the Dead Sea Scrolls? I tried several websites, including the Israel Museum and the Shrine of the Book, but didn’t find anything.

 

[HopkinsReb]

That argument boils down to “it seems true to me, therefore it’s true.” It’s Romanticism before Romanticism became a thing: my feelings are the source of truth; reason gets in the way of truth.

 

[goout]

A “true believer” recognizes that he/she does not live in an individual vacuum. To be a true believer means to be united in faith and obedience to the whole and universal Body of Christ.
The Scriptures can only exist in the community in which they were written, because the scriptures flow out of the incarnation of Christ into the human condition. That human condition is unified in Christ, and it is visible in time and space, because that’s who Christ is.

To be a true believer requires a heart that is open and docile to the Church.

 

[mcq72]

The Tanakh consists of Law (Torah)/Prophets (Nevi’im)/Writings (Ketuvim) so, technically-speaking, “the Law and the Prophets” would not include: Psalms, Proverbs, Job, Song of Songs, Ruth, Lamentations, Ecclesiastes, Esther, Daniel, Ezra/Nehemiah and Chronicles.

inetersting…thanks…no wonder Jesus had to add “Psalms” to “Law and Prophets” in Luke 24

 

[mcq72]

That argument boils down to “it seems true to me, therefore it’s true.” It’s Romanticism before Romanticism became a thing: my feelings are the source of truth; reason gets in the way of truth.

not sure what you mean or who does this when discerning God breathed writings

 

[mcq72]

because the scriptures flow out of the incarnation of Christ into the human condition.

Not sure if this an addition to defining what is “holy scripture”…I mean we had scripture before the incarnation, and after His ascension…but scripture flows from God , His Logos , which is Christ.

 

[Kaninchen]

do you know anything about the fragments of the Hebrew Tobit

Sorry, no.

 

[goout]

goout:

because the scriptures flow out of the incarnation of Christ into the human condition.

Not sure if this an addition to defining what is “holy scripture”…I mean we had scripture before the incarnation, and after His ascension…but scripture flows from God , His Logos , which is Christ.

Correct.
And Christ is…

 

[mcq72]

you have seen a list of the references that have been identified in Jesus’ own words in the Gospels, do you have a link to that? Thanks!

Not a list as your articles…i think i just googled “Jesus quoting old testament”

 

[Eark]

Two things.
First, I’ve just realised that I’ve put the cart before the horse with this line of argument. Without an institutional authority mandated by Christ, I’m not sure why there must be a bible at all. Indeed, Quakers don’t feel it essential. What is the Lutheran justification for there being a “canon”, knowing Jesus never mentioned the prospect? Although, the link you sent doesn’t strictly propose a canon. It proposes:

Thus the Lutheran approach to the canon is to have a rule of interpretation essentially defined by the certainty to which we can establish a book’s origin

What is the origin of this view, if not man? It seems totally arbitrary.
Second, the Wikipedia page for the “Development of the Christian biblical canon” says:

Which books constituted the Christian biblical canons of both the Old and New Testament was generally established by the 5th century, despite some scholarly disagreements,[1] for the ancient undivided Church (the Catholic and Eastern Orthodox traditions, before the East–West Schism).

Wikipedia is generally reliable, so you’re going to have to give me compelling alternative source if I’m to believe your claim to the contrary.

 

[Maximus1]

True Jesus never spoke of it. And the abruptness of his death had to be shocking. I think one of the most startling things historically is the infusion of genuine writing talent and education that somehow sprung from a cave dwelling community. The infusion of Hellenistic influences to somehow make sense of the death of their friend and Rabbi. A Christian School in Alexandria where the " whole story" was placed into a narrative.