Historical reliability of the 4 gospels

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patg:
Yes, I looked at it and it contains some interesting theories and attempted explanations, some logical and some which were rather contrived to make sure that the desired result was obtained at all costs. Is it part of the deposit of faith all Catholics must believe?

You keep ignoring the simple truth of *Dei Verbum *which is quite clear all by itself and which quite clearly states the obvious - the bible is not a literal history book.
Markan theory is contrived, not the historical record. Markan’s try to fit the Bible to their thinking.

And in your processing of the texts you neglect Tradition.

I find it hard to believe that when references are made to an actual place or event, you simply believe only the lesson should be taken from it. When people write and they reference places and events, they are usually relevent and historical.

And the article is based and corraborated by evidence not theories as you claim.
 
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buffalo:
Markan theory is contrived, not the historical record. Markan’s try to fit the Bible to their thinking.
The historical record is more than contrived - there generally isn’t one. And when there is no historical record, you are on a pretty weak foundation.
And in your processing of the texts you neglect Tradition.
Tradition is a pretty small factor in judging the historicity of anything.
I find it hard to believe that when references are made to an actual place or event, you simply believe only the lesson should be taken from it. When people write and they reference places and events, they are usually relevent and historical.
That’s true (or maybe just more true) today. However, when you really study the methods and literary forms common in writing 2000 years ago and the worldview of the time, you will see the importance of Dei Verbum’s encouragement to look outside the “history box”.
And the article is based and corraborated by evidence not theories as you claim.
That’s a theory also
 
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SFH:
OK. Since you repeatedly refer to Dei Verbum (without any specific citations I might add), let’s see what Dei Verbum really says:

“19. Holy Mother Church has firmly and with absolute constancy held, and continues to hold, that the four Gospels just named, whose historical character the Church unhesitatingly asserts, faithfully hand on what Jesus Christ, while living among men, really did and taught for their eternal salvation until the day He was taken up into heaven (see Acts 1:1).”

Thus, Dei Verbum makes two assertions about the Gospel narratives: (1) they are historical; and (2) the historical narrative is a faithful representation of what was really said and done by Christ.
Of course you are ignoring a critical part of this statement and I see you stopped highlighting when you got to it. Including it changes everything: ***“for their eternal salvation”. ***This clearly limits the scope to what relates to salvation, i.e., faith and morals.
BTW, the Virgin birth is a dogma of faith defined by several ecumenical councils and witnessed by the Gospel narratives. You cannot deny it and remain a Catholic. Similarly, the bodily resurrection of the Blessed Lord, the miracle of the Holy Eucharist, and several of the other miracles enumerated in the Gospel narratives are also defined dogmas of faith that cannot be denied by a Catholic.
I never denied any of that. I do, however, absolutely assert that the infancy narratives are fiction.
Those Catholics who deny the Virgin birth or the bodily resurrection of Christ are no longer Catholics and they are lying to their fellow Catholics and the Holy Spirit if they pretend otherwise.
Where did you get the idea that anyone was denying this? I believe that the accounts in the gospels clearly teach these truths even if through fiction.
 
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buffalo:
I find it hard to believe that when references are made to an actual place or event, you simply believe only the lesson should be taken from it. When people write and they reference places and events, they are usually relevent and historical.
So when the ancient writers described the miraculous births of great men such as Caesar, Alexander, etc, complete with divine intervention, unusual celestial and geologic events, and a multitude of miracles, you believe it all to be literal history because of all the references to places and events?

The root of our disagreement is a denial of the concept that the authors wrote in a style and literary form in which history was not important. They did not write history as we do and it is essential that we understand the style, worldview, literary form, and intent of the writers - that is what is so strongly emphasized in Dei Verbum. An infancy narrative is a literary form, NOT history, and Dei Verbum tells you that you had better consider the literary form when interpreting any piece of the gospels.

Lets briefly consider the miracle stories. Are they literal history? It doesn’t really matter because they don’t really tell you anything about Jesus. There were a large number of Jewish holy men who performed almost identical well documented miracles in the same time period. The miracle stories merely put Jesus in the same class as them and tell you that he was a respected Jewish holy man - that is the truth they are conveying. Were those men divine because they worked the same miracles? Well, we don’t worship them.
 
Just a point of order here.

While the Catechism of the Catholic Church does not aim to be a Bible commentary, it does make some statements about our faith and trust in scripture.

Check out paragraph 390, for example. The statement there has the beauty and grace of being magisterial.

One doesn’t need an index of all the historical inaccuracies. Why sure, just take the big stuff and pray that you make the correct decision.

Do you believe that God became Man? For your welfare, I am more concerned whether you accept that. If you’re looking for an excuse not to believe, hey, make a stand and order a pizza. Have a nice day.
 
patg,

This is the third and final part.

In your postings you give a detailed and, on the surface, plausible explanation of the “development of the tradition.” Mark’s account is “the least elaborate and polished,” because theoretically his Gospel was written first (although from what I understand most of the evidence that his Gospel was written first is that it is the least elaborate and polished). The other evangelists try to “improve on this unsatisfactory ending.” Matthew changes this, Luke adds that, and all the while implicitly they are ignoring the fact that none of these events actually happened. I’m sorry, but the explanation is one long projection of the modern casual disregard for the truth onto the ancient writers. It is another case, like your treatment of Joseph of Arimathea, that recounting an event in order to fulfill a purpose is taken as evidence that the event did not actually happen.

Dorothy Sayers, in her play cycle on the life of Christ Man Born To Be King, notes that all the events recounted from the first Easter Sunday can be explained by a trifling effort to imagine a bunch of very confused people stumbling around Jerusalem one day. The women ran away frightened and confused; okay, then a short time later they recovered and went to tell the disciples. The disciples in Mark’s account discounted what the women told them; okay, nine of them did and Peter and John went to check it out. And so on.

I think you put your finger on the main problem when you cited Matthew 28:11-15, the account of the guards’ saying that Jesus’ body had been stolen. If Jesus did not rise physically from the dead, why couldn’t the authorities simply produce the body? Certainly there were doubts, even among Jesus’ followers; after all, dead people do not get up and walk, and some skepticism on reports of this is both natural and healthy.

While I appreciate your belief that the physical resurrection of Jesus is not a verifiable event, I also strongly disagree with it. All the evidence that you have given that it did not happen appears to be of the Joseph of Arimathea type (“this serves a theological purpose, therefore it cannot be physically true”) or else is an elaborate explanation of how, if Jesus did not rise physically from the dead, the Gospels came to say that He did. In short, it assumes the conclusion.
  • Liberian
 
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patg:
So when the ancient writers described the miraculous births of great men such as Caesar, Alexander, etc, complete with divine intervention, unusual celestial and geologic events, and a multitude of miracles, you believe it all to be literal history because of all the references to places and events?

The root of our disagreement is a denial of the concept that the authors wrote in a style and literary form in which history was not important. They did not write history as we do and it is essential that we understand the style, worldview, literary form, and intent of the writers - that is what is so strongly emphasized in Dei Verbum. An infancy narrative is a literary form, NOT history, and Dei Verbum tells you that you had better consider the literary form when interpreting any piece of the gospels.

Lets briefly consider the miracle stories. Are they literal history? It doesn’t really matter because they don’t really tell you anything about Jesus. There were a large number of Jewish holy men who performed almost identical well documented miracles in the same time period. The miracle stories merely put Jesus in the same class as them and tell you that he was a respected Jewish holy man - that is the truth they are conveying. Were those men divine because they worked the same miracles? Well, we don’t worship them.
A bottom line question for you - Is Jesus Divine?
 
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buffalo:
A bottom line question for you - Is Jesus Divine?
As a matter of faith, teaching, and tradition - yes.

As a matter of history - Rigorous historical methods cannot answer this question.

History can tell you that he was an important person, attracted a following, worked what appeared to be wonders, and was put to death. All history is reconstruction and we don’t have enough to reconstruct any further than this - especially when the question is outside human experience.

Heck, history can’t even tell us definitely whether Shakespeare was gay, whether Iraq had WMD’s, or who really won the Bush/Gore election.
 
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BayCityRickL:
Do you believe that God became Man? For your welfare, I am more concerned whether you accept that. If you’re looking for an excuse not to believe, hey, make a stand and order a pizza. Have a nice day.
Thanks, I am… But I don’t dare order pizza - my wife is a celiac.

I believe God became man as a matter of faith, teaching, and tradition.

I do not believe it based on historical analysis or on what is in the gospels.
 
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buffalo:
A bottom line question for you - Is Jesus Divine?
So when the Gospel authors recorded Jesus saying He was the Son of God, this is not history, just faith, teaching and Tradition?
 
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buffalo:
So when the Gospel authors recorded Jesus saying He was the Son of God, this is not history, just faith, teaching and Tradition?
They did not “record” him saying anything. Most likely, the authors did not themselves “hear” him say anything either.

There is a lot of time between the event and the writings - time for a variety of oral traditions and miscellaneous stories to circulate and develop. The authors selected the stories (by some unknown decision process) and arranged them to suit their theological theme.

The only gospel in which Jesus walks around saying he is God is John, which comes from a very different tradition and presents a Jesus so different from the synoptics that it is hardly the same person. In the opinion of many scholars, this gospel is the product of a much later tradition with a very highly developed Christology. Regardless of which line of thought you follow, we don’t have any tape recordings.
 
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patg:
They did not “record” him saying anything. Most likely, the authors did not themselves “hear” him say anything either.

There is a lot of time between the event and the writings - time for a variety of oral traditions and miscellaneous stories to circulate and develop. The authors selected the stories (by some unknown decision process) and arranged them to suit their theological theme.

The only gospel in which Jesus walks around saying he is God is John, which comes from a very different tradition and presents a Jesus so different from the synoptics that it is hardly the same person. In the opinion of many scholars, this gospel is the product of a much later tradition with a very highly developed Christology. Regardless of which line of thought you follow, we don’t have any tape recordings.
How much time between Matthew and the Resurrection?
 
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buffalo:
How much time between Matthew and the Resurrection?
No one knows and any conjecture is purely that since there is nothing else to go on.

If you want to base the timing on physical evidence, you have to consider that the original copies of all the written sources have completely disappeared. The oldest fragment of any portion of the New Testament dates from the 2nd century, 100 years after Jesus’ death. The next oldest fragments (of Matthew, Luke, John, and Thomas) date to about 200. The first complete copy of the Greek New Testament (Codex Sinaiticus) is from the 4th century. Thus, three centuries separate Jesus from the earliest complete surviving copies of the gospels.

None of the bibles we use are from a single source - they are formed from about 5000 Greek manuscripts that contain all or parts of the new testament.

Many scholars estimate 30 to 40 years.
 
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patg:
Of course you are ignoring a critical part of this statement and I see you stopped highlighting when you got to it. Including it changes everything: ***“for their eternal salvation”. ***This clearly limits the scope to what relates to salvation, i.e., faith and morals.
The view that the Bible only remains accurate/truthful when it deals with matters of faith and morals was clearly condemned by Pope Leo XIII in his encyclical Prov. Deus. Pope Leo XIII’s position was reiterated and reinforced by Pope Pius XII and Pope Paul VI.
 
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miguel:
I’m afraid that exegesis is not terribly compelling. First, it makes the critical and unsupported assumption that we know enough of ancient history to make a judgment on the historical accuracy of the Gospel accounts (e.g., additional archeological studies may reveal another town in the region of Lake Tiberius by that name). At best, we have an incomplete archeological picture told by scientists who may or may not have a hidden agenda. Second, it assumes that archeological discoveries/evidence are more reliable than the Gospel narratives (i.e., the work of scientists today is just as suspect as the historical accuracy of the evangelist). What we have is an inconsistency between archeological discoveries and the biblical narrative. Over time, one or the other may prove inaccurate or the inconsistency may be cleared up. Third, assuming we have all the archeological evidence of the time period and can conclusively prove that the swine could not have plunged into the lake, there still isn’t necessarily a historical inaccuracy. Consider the footnote in La Bible de Jerusalem: “The town of Gerasa, actually Djerash, is situated more than 50 km from the Lake of Tiberius, which makes the swine episode impossible. It is possible that Mark joined two distinct episodes. According to the first, Jesus would have performed a simple exorcism, in the region of Gerasa. According to the second, Jesus sent the demons into the swine who threw themselves into the lake.” Note that this interpretation doesn’t do prejudice to the historical accuracy of the Gospel narrative; it merely points out that two historically accurate accounts may have been joined here. Finally, no exegesis is complete without incorporation of the Fathers of the Church. I note that patg’s exegesis is conspicuously lacking in that respect.
 
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SFH:
The view that the Bible only remains accurate/truthful when it deals with matters of faith and morals was clearly condemned by Pope Leo XIII in his encyclical Prov. Deus. Pope Leo XIII’s position was reiterated and reinforced by Pope Pius XII and Pope Paul VI.
And it is clearly allowed and supported by other writings (Dei Verbum, for example), other writers (John Meier - writing under the imprimatur), and other members of the pontifical biblical commission (Raymond Brown, for example),
 
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SFH:
I’m afraid that exegesis is not terribly compelling. First, it makes the critical and unsupported assumption that we know enough of ancient history to make a judgment on the historical accuracy of the Gospel accounts (e.g., additional archeological studies may reveal another town in the region of Lake Tiberius by that name). At best, we have an incomplete archeological picture told by scientists who may or may not have a hidden agenda. Second, it assumes that archeological discoveries/evidence are more reliable than the Gospel narratives (i.e., the work of scientists today is just as suspect as the historical accuracy of the evangelist). What we have is an inconsistency between archeological discoveries and the biblical narrative. Over time, one or the other may prove inaccurate or the inconsistency may be cleared up. Third, assuming we have all the archeological evidence of the time period and can conclusively prove that the swine could not have plunged into the lake, there still isn’t necessarily a historical inaccuracy. Consider the footnote in La Bible de Jerusalem: “The town of Gerasa, actually Djerash, is situated more than 50 km from the Lake of Tiberius, which makes the swine episode impossible. It is possible that Mark joined two distinct episodes. According to the first, Jesus would have performed a simple exorcism, in the region of Gerasa. According to the second, Jesus sent the demons into the swine who threw themselves into the lake.” Note that this interpretation doesn’t do prejudice to the historical accuracy of the Gospel narrative; it merely points out that two historically accurate accounts may have been joined here. Finally, no exegesis is complete without incorporation of the Fathers of the Church. I note that patg’s exegesis is conspicuously lacking in that respect.
I am always amazed that it is so hard for some to believe that an author would use a fictional account to teach a truth or make a theological point, Do we argue whether Alice in Wonderland is literal truth or do we accept it as political satire? Is Pinocchio literal history or does it teach about the evil of lying? Does the mention of Jesus automatically imply history and cancel every author’s ability to write using customary literary forms?

Jesus taught with parables and other stories yet we deny the gospel authors the right to do the same.
 
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