History of the Bible? (Apocryphal Books) 1

[dosdog]

“Substantive arguments” Are statues not graven images, or did you just decide to forget about that part of Gods law?

I AM THE LORD THY GOD, THOU SHALT NOT HAVE strange gods BEFORE ME.

"Idolizing material images to the point they are held in superstition, and as men would suspect, suppose, determine ‘The Creator of All Things’ would be like; such as idols of human form or animal likeness also.

Eliminating the Mystery of a Divine Being that no man can touch, see or feel. Replacing this Mystery with physical means and emphasis put on knowledge and man’s own senses.

Interpreting God to fit a manner, mood and way, making Him humanly understandable rather than Divine."

Pentecostalism - Idolatry - Power - Communism - Atheism - Humanism - Cults

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themiracleofstjoseph.org/commands.php

God commands images to be made Ex 25:18-22; Num 21:8-9
Solomon builds his temple with statues and images 1 Kings 6:23-29; 35; 7:29

Stone Carving of the Ark of Covenant Found in Ruins of Ancient Capernaum
rich carvings, which adorned the synagogue.Above the main entrance carved in the stone are the figures of an eagle and of cupids holding wreaths

catholic-jhb.org.za/tracts/tract_8.htm

 

[Zooey]

Is this what your traditions have taught you? NO books were taken away. YOUR Church Added the Duetero-cannicle and Apocyrphal books to the Bible. Who also, were widly rejected as inspired books to be added to the canon by your early church fathers until the days of Augustines major influences of the church. Read your own church history from an un protestant and un catholic source.

:nope: Not true, not true, not true, not true.
Up into the 18th century all English Bibles contained the deuterocanonicals. Up into the 19th century, the King James Version contained them!!
They were only removed when new revisions appeared which did not have them, partly for financial & partly for theological reasons.
My great-great-(etc, etc, back to the 18th Jacobite Rising in Britain)grandfather, a Welsh Baptist minister, arrived in the American colonies with a Bible in English w/deuterocanon intact, & a Latin Bible, ditto! That was what everybody had!! Now, I daresay he had some different views on the Scriptures than I do, but he knew what the books were, & you don’t have them all in your Bible, only because of later events. (Methinks **you **may be the one who:yup: needs to read your history!!)
The books you claim were “added” were never in question until Luther decided not to use them…but even he never had the gall to dump them out altogether! (And he wanted to…along with James, Revelation, & other parts of the NT that he disliked!!

The Reforners exposed the lies of the early Catholic church like… selling of indulgences to buy a loved ones from “purgatory” as you call it and your graven images and your false church traditions.
Sad but true

Oh, for the love of mike!! You seriously need to find out what Catholics really believe & practice, instead of reading hate literature.
Arriving here was a good first step in that direction. Dragging out this parade of misconceptions was a big, big, step in the opposite direction. And that** is** sad, but true!!

I pray that you will be moved into the light of the Lord and his word for what it is, and out of the false traditions that you have been brought up to belive.

Oy vay!! You :nope:haven’t a clue as to what Catholics believe; how on earth can you possibly :nope:“enlighten” anyone??
Read up over at the wonderful library on the Catholic Answers Home Site, & then come back & engage with us here. Until then, please, be humble enough to admit that you don’t know what you think you know about Catholics!!

 

[rtconstant]

Upon reflection I should have been more charitable on my previous posts. While I stand by the meat of what I wrote I think I became patronizing which is not a good Christian quality. I apologize if my tone offended anyone.

Thankfully, the Lord still convicts me on such things and he’s got his work cut out for him on me.

Mea culpa

 

[RCCDefender]

To stay on topic:

…no direct quotations from any Apocryphal books appear in the NT. Now there are allusions to Apocryphal events and statements, such 1Maccabees being alluded to in Hebrews 11:37. But none of these allusions rise to the apostles using the Apocrypha as an authoritative source…

So with the lack of authoritative quotes from the Apocrypha in the NT, it appears the NT writers, and Jesus Himself, did not accept the Apocrypha as Scripture…

…The absent of any quotes from any of the Apocryphal books is rather striking. This is especially so given that many of the OT quotes in the NT were actually taken from the Septuagint and not from the Hebrew text (It is for this reason that if you compare OT quotes in the NT with their OT counterparts they don’t match up exactly). In any case, what this means is, the Bible text the NT authors had before them had the Apocrypha in it; but they seem to have completely ignored the Apocrypha when they were looking to support a statement with an authoritative source.

Really now???

I shall resubmit the following:

Jesus and the Authors of the Gospels on the deuterocanon:

Matt. 2:16 - Herod’s decree of slaying innocent children was prophesied in Wis. 11:7 - slaying the holy innocents.

Matt. 6:19-20 - Jesus’ statement about laying up for yourselves treasure in heaven follows **Sirach 29:11 **- lay up your treasure.

Matt… 7:12 - Jesus’ golden rule “do unto others” is the converse of **Tobit 4:15 **- what you hate, do not do to others.

Matt. 7:16,20 - Jesus’ statement “you will know them by their fruits” follows Sirach 27:6 - the fruit discloses the cultivation.

Matt. 9:36 - the people were “like sheep without a shepherd” is same as Judith 11:19 - sheep without a shepherd.

Matt. 11:25 - Jesus’ description “Lord of heaven and earth” is the same as **Tobit 7:18 **- Lord of heaven and earth.

Matt. 12:42 - Jesus refers to the **wisdom of Solomon **which was recorded and made part of the deuterocanonical books.

Matt. 16:18 - Jesus’ reference to the “power of death” and “gates of Hades” references Wisdom 16:13.

Matt. 22:25; Mark 12:20; Luke 20:29 - Gospel writers refer to the canonicity of** Tobit 3:8 and 7:11** regarding the seven brothers.

Matt. 24:15 - the “desolating sacrilege” Jesus refers to is also taken from 1 Macc. 1:54 and 2 Macc. 8:17.

Matt. 24:16 - let those “flee to the mountains” is taken from 1 Macc. 2:28.

Matt. 27:43 - if He is God’s Son, let God deliver him from His adversaries follows Wisdom 2:18.

Mark 4:5,16-17 - Jesus’ description of seeds falling on rocky ground and having no root follows Sirach 40:15.

Mark 9:48 - description of hell where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched references Judith 16:17.

Luke 1:42 - Elizabeth’s declaration of Mary’s blessedness above all women follows Uzziah’s declaration in Judith 13:18.

Luke 1:52 - Mary’s magnificat addressing the mighty falling from their thrones and replaced by lowly follows Sirach 10:14.

Luke 2:29 - Simeon’s declaration that he is ready to die after seeing the Child Jesus follows Tobit 11:9.

Luke 13:29 - the Lord’s description of men coming from east and west to rejoice in God follows Baruch 4:37.

Luke 21:24 - Jesus’ usage of “fall by the edge of the sword” follows Sirach 28:18.

Luke 24:4 and Acts 1:10 - Luke’s description of the two men in dazzling apparel reminds us of 2 Macc. 3:26.

John 1:3 - all things were made through Him, the Word, follows** Wisdom 9:1**.

John 3:13 - who has ascended into heaven but He who descended from heaven references Baruch 3:29.

John 4:48; Acts 5:12; 15:12; 2 Cor. 12:12 - Jesus’, Luke’s and Paul’s usage of “signs and wonders” follows Wisdom 8:8.

John 5:18 - Jesus claiming that God is His Father follows Wisdom 2:16.

John 6:35-59 - Jesus’ Eucharistic discourse is foreshadowed in Sirach 24:21.

John 10:22 - the identification of the feast of the dedication is taken from 1 Macc. 4:59.

John 10:36 – Jesus accepts the inspiration of Maccabees as He analogizes the Hanukkah consecration to His own consecration to the Father in 1 Macc. 4:36.

John 15:6 - branches that don’t bear fruit and are cut down follows Wis. 4:5 where branches are broken off.
Online Source

Shall I go on??

Of course this is just from the Gospels. I can post from the rest of the New Testament if you would like

 

[heisenburg]

I have a few very simple questions that need to be asked if the protestant bible is to be considered the only true version:

If the Protestant cannon is 100% correct…

1. Why were there no outcrys when The coucil of rome, hippo and carthage all agreed in 390-410(ish) on the cannon you see in the catholic church.

1b) why were there arguments over what was inspired until those councils, but none after.

1. Why didnt the Greek Orthodox revert to the hebrew cannon if those coucils were wrong
2. why is it that it wasnt ‘inspired’ for 1500 years after the death of christ
3. Why is it that the person that removed those books, also wanted to remove NT books
4. If the same person that removed the OT books was truely inspired, why did he put the NT books BACK in at the behest of his protestant brethren.
5. If he was right, Wouldnt he be obligated to leave the NT books out dispite the pleadings of his brethren?
6. If it is because he was wrong about the NT books, could he not also be wrong about the OT books?

Ultimatly…

It is not the Catholic Church that added them, but Martin Luther that removed them.
Dispite the claims… the Councile of Trent did not ADD them… it was simply a REAFFIRMATION of the council of Rome, Hippo, and Carthage

If someone wishes to say that this is not the way it occured, and/or that the catholic church hide the truth is at best ignoring history in favor of their own beliefs, at its worst, so fueled by hatred that they refuse to see anything else

In Christ

 

[cazayoux]

Then finally look at the early church fathers (the guys who learned from the Apostles and their successors) and take a look at what the Church actually practiced during the age of the Apostles and the first few centuries after their deaths. It is eye opening.

I recently read “The Four Witnesses” and would recommend it to all, especially devout evangelicals.

michel

 

[cazayoux]

First, the Jewish canon does not include the Apocrypha. *This is significant as it was to the Jews that the OT was entrusted *(Rom 3:1,2).

The Jews didn’t define their OT until the end of the first century.
You maintain that after Christ’s death and resurrection, the Jews (all of whom missed the boat on the whole Jesus as the Messiah thing) were entrusted with any authority at all?

It seems more logical that we would purposefully not listen to any non-Christian Jews in 97 AD as being authoritative.

michel

 

[repentantsinner]

Any protestant who brings up statues or icons is a hypocrit as their own homes are churches are filled with “graven images”. The only difference is that when a protestant does it its obviously just for positive and instructive imagery. When a Catholic does it though “Oh God! Paganism!”

Our church is not filled with graven cross images. We don’t wear examples of Roman torture methods.

I don’t have time at this point to expound on other points but soon mabye. Thanks for the reply’s

 

[heisenburg]

If I look at the picture of a fallen relative or friend and think about the times spent with them, Am I putting the picture over the person?

If I read an article in the paper about soemthing that makes me stop and think about what was jsut read, am i worshiping the paper?

If I go to the National Mall and contemplate on what Lincon did for our country, am I worshiping the statue?

Of course the answer is no

Now, lets apply that to christianity

If I look at a cross or a crucifix and think abotu christ suffering, am I dishonoring Him?

If I look at a painting or picture of someone that has done great things for christ, and I think about what they did for christ and things that I can do for christ, am I putting the picture before christ?

If I see a statue of Jesus, Mary, Joseph, or any other Noted christian, and I think abotu things they have done and how it relates to Christ, am I worshiping a statue?

If ANYONE puts an image, statue, or any other object before god, he must be rebuked…

If you can use any object to HELP you in your journey to christ, how can it possibly be wrong…

If you are going to say using pictures, crosses and statues as an INSPIRATION to following christ is evil, then please remove all pictures of family members, never read a book, and visit no memorials.

You msut also close your eyes to all things, cover your ears and stay confined because anything could potentially turn you away from god based on that logic…

In Christ

 

[rtconstant]

Our church is not filled with graven cross images. We don’t wear examples of Roman torture methods.

I don’t have time at this point to expound on other points but soon mabye. Thanks for the reply’s

Odds are you have a Cross in your church I’ve yet to see a protestant church that doesn’t that’s an image. You also likely have pictures in your church again it would be odd if you didn’t those are images. The sunday school literature that you have likely has pictures, those are images. Do you worship them? No of course not. Neither do we. End of discussion. I am looking forward to your other points though.

Take care.

 

[Zooey]

Our church is not filled with graven cross images. We don’t wear examples of Roman torture methods.

:nope: I am very :crying: :crying: sorry to:nope: hear this…

“For whoever is ashamed of Me and of My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, of him the Son of Man also will be ashamed when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels”. (Mark 8:38).

“For I determined not to know anything among you, except Jesus Christ and Him crucified”. (1 Corinthians 2:2).

“For the preaching of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved, it is the power of God”. (1 Corinthians 1:18).

http://bestsmileys.com/religous/6.gif:gopray:

 

[lak611]

:nope: I am very :crying: :crying: sorry to:nope: hear this…

“For whoever is ashamed of Me and of My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, of him the Son of Man also will be ashamed when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels”. (Mark 8:38).

“For I determined not to know anything among you, except Jesus Christ and Him crucified”. (1 Corinthians 2:2).

“For the preaching of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved, it is the power of God”. (1 Corinthians 1:18).

:bowdown2: :dancing:

 

[rtconstant]

I am very sorry to hear this…

“For whoever is ashamed of Me and of My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, of him the Son of Man also will be ashamed when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels”. (Mark 8:38).

“For I determined not to know anything among you, except Jesus Christ and Him crucified”. (1 Corinthians 2:2).

“For the preaching of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved, it is the power of God”. (1 Corinthians 1:18).

Zooey ftw!

 

[Ferdinand_Mary]

Having drifted significantly off topic…

Thank you to all who participated; this thread is now closed.

Mane Nobiscum Domine,
Ferdinand Mary