History of the Bible? (Apocryphal Books) 1

[whosebob]

So if we take four bibles and compare them and see which one is worded correctly or incorrectly 3 of the 4 of the say the same thing so if we add the word Epistle to the RSV we now have 4 perfect bibles. Now what does it say to you?

JMJ + OBT​

Okay … ? ? ? <I’m confuesed, but here goes> ? ? ? … so the Christians at Thessalonica had been taught the doctrine of Jesus Christ both by the preaching of the teachings of Christ and His Apostles, and also by way of St. Paul’s writing letters to them which declared the same truths.

Presumably, then, at the time of the death of the last Apostle, there was a whole body of teaching which had been transmitted to the overall Christian community in the form of both preaching and letters. The Catholic contention is that this whole body of teaching, the Deposit of Faith was, has been, and is faithfully transmitted by the bishops, priests, deacons, and lay faithful of the Church of Jesus Christ down to the present day, and into the future until the close of history and Christ’s Second Coming. The written portion of this sacred deposit is part of what was transmitted to us by the Apostles, but not all of it – you need the rest of the preaching and the Holy Spirit enabled clarifications of the Church’s bishops in ecumenical council in order to have the fullness of the truth that Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ wants you to have!!!

Here, please consider reading this: Dei Verbum = “The Dogmatic Constitution on Divine Revelation” issued by the Second Vatican Council in 1965, as a means to teach and clarify how the Catholic Church understands God to have revealed His truth to mankind.

In Christ.

IC XC NIKA

 

[dosdog]

With All Love and Heartache I say to you, Using scripture to refute scripture is fallible and that is exactly what you are doing! So I guess you are saved by your good works then? For your traditions?

Matt 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? And in thy name have cast out devils? And in thy name done many wonderful works 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

BIBLE SAYS FAITH AND WORKS NEEDED FOR SALVATION
the only time the phrase “faith alone” is used in the entire Bible is when it is condemned (James 2:24). The epistle of James only mentions it in the negative sense.
faith also involves assent to God’s truth (1 Thessalonians 2:13), obedience to Him (Romans 1:5, 16:26), and it must be working in love (Galatians 5:6). These points appeared to be missed by the reformers, yet they are just as crucial as believing and trusting. (1 Corinthians 13:1-3) should be heeded by all it’s certainly an attention grabber( 2 And if I should have prophecy and should know all mysteries, and all knowledge, and if I should have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing)
Paul speaks of faith as a life-long process, never as a one-time experience (Philippians 2:12). He never assumes he has nothing to worry about. If he did, his words in (1 Corinthians 9:24-27) would be nonsensical. He reiterates the same point again in his second letter to Corinth (2 Corinthians 13:5). He takes nothing for granted, yet all would agree if anyone was “born again” it certainly was Paul. Our Lord and Savior spoke of the same thing by “remaining in Him” (John 15:1-11).
Our faith can be shipwrecked (1 Timothy 1:19), departed from (1 Timothy 4:1), disowned (1 Timothy 5:8) wandered from (1 Timothy 6:10), and missed (1 Timothy 6:21). Christians do not have a “waiver” that exempts them from these verses. According to Jesus (Matthew 25:31-46). The people rewarded and punished are done so by their actions. And our thoughts (Matthew 15:18-20) and words (James 3:6-12) are accountable as well. These verses are just as much part of the Bible as Romans 10:8-13 and John 3:3-5.
Some will object by appealing to Romans 4:3 and stating Abraham was “declared righteous” before circumcision. Thus he was only saved by “believing” faith (Genesis 15:6), not by faith “working in love” (Galatians 5:6). Isn’t this what Paul means when he says none will be justified by “works of law” (Romans 3:28)? No, this is not what he means. He’s condemning the Old Covenant sacrifices and rituals which couldn’t justify and pointing to better things now in Christ Jesus in the New Covenant (Hebrews 7-10).
In Genesis 12-14 Abraham makes two geographical moves, builds an altar and calls on the Lord, divides land with Lot to end quarrels, pays tithes, and refuses goods from the King of Sodom to rely instead on God’s providence. He did all these works as an old man. It was certainly a struggle. After all these actions of faith, then he’s “declared righteous” (Genesis 15:6).
our salvation. It is an inheritance (Galatians 5:21), freely given to anyone who becomes a child of God (1 John 3:1), so long as they remain that way (John 15:1-11). You can’t earn it but you can lose the free gift (James 1:22). But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves
ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/FAWORKS.HTM

 

[GodsElect]

If you would just research your church history and find that they were ever changing from the begining and adding books to the canon when they pleased and that catholics put protestants on crosses and burned them and beheaded them to hide the lies of thier chruch hopefully by the Grace of God you may see the truth behind your own churches history.

 

[GodsElect]

"But we are all like an unclean thing, and all our righteousness are like filthy rags; we all fade as a leaf, and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away. (Isaiah 64:6)

"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith–and this not from youselves, it is the gift of God–not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do " (Eph. 2:8,9).

SO lets keep saying your works will get you in heaven

 

[whosebob]

With All Love and Heartache I say to you, Using scripture to refute scripture is fallible and that is exactly what you are doing! So I guess you are saved by your good works then?

May Our Lord bless you, GodsElect, and may the prayers of the Holy Mother of God obtain for you the virtue and grace to live as Jesus Christ taught us. Well, here is what St. James said regarding faith and works:

You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. (James 2:24 [RSV])

Please read this page too, and if you would like to make comments and criticism based on its contents, please do so by all means:

scripturecatholic.com/justification.html

In Christ.

IC XC NIKA

 

[dosdog]

If you would just research your church history and find that they were ever changing from the begining and adding books to the canon when they pleased and that catholics put protestants on crosses and burned them and beheaded them to hide the lies of thier chruch hopefully by the Grace of God you may see the truth behind your own churches history.

Melito, bishop of Sardis, an ancient city of Asia Minor (see Rev 3), c. 170 AD produced the first known Christian attempt at an Old Testament canon. His list maintains the Septuagint order of books but contains only the Old Testament protocanonicals minus the Book of Esther.

The Council of Laodicea, c. 360, produced a list of books similar to today’s canon. This was one of the Church’s earliest decisions on a canon.

Pope Damasus, 366-384, in his Decree, listed the books of today’s canon.

The Council of Rome, 382, was the forum which prompted Pope Damasus’ Decree.

Bishop Exuperius of Toulouse wrote to Pope Innocent I in 405 requesting a list of canonical books. Pope Innocent listed the present canon.

The Council of Hippo, a local north Africa council of bishops created the list of the Old and New Testament books in 393 which is the same as the Roman Catholic list today.

The Council of Carthage, a local north Africa council of bishops created the same list of canonical books in 397. This is the council which many Protestant and Evangelical Christians take as the authority for the New Testament canon of books. The Old Testament canon from the same council is identical to Roman Catholic canon today. Another Council of Carthage in 419 offered the same list of canonical books.

Since the Roman Catholic Church does not define truths unless errors abound on the matter, Roman Catholic Christians look to the Council of Florence, an ecumenical council in 1441 for the first definitive list of canonical books.

The final infallible definition of canonical books for Roman Catholic Christians came from the Council of Trent in 1556 in the face of the errors of the Reformers who rejected seven Old Testament books from the canon of scripture to that time.
catholicapologetics.org/ap030700.htm

 

[whosebob]

If you would just research your church history and find that they were ever changing from the begining and adding books to the canon when they pleased and that catholics put protestants on crosses and burned them and beheaded them to hide the lies of thier chruch hopefully by the Grace of God you may see the truth behind your own churches history.

JMJ + OBT​

GodsElect, may Our Lord bless you and may the prayers of His saints be your shield and aid in your battles with the evil one.

Okay, so it’s Church history now … Well, sure enough and as Christ taught, there have been, will be, and are big-time saints and sinners in the Church from the day Our Lord chose the Twelve Apostles unto the present day. I mean, Judas Iscariot was on of the Twelve!

Yes, yes … Catholics brutalized and killed Protestants, and Protestants likewise brutalized and killed Catholics. It mostly was and is an awful display of sinful behavior. But surely that doesn’t disprove or prove Catholic or Protestant doctrines or interpretations of Scripture?

By the way, speaking of Church history, have you taken the time to dig into the wonderful lives and writings of the Early Church Fathers? Be warned, don’t do so unless you wish to meet a genuine historical challenge to your Protestant beliefs.

In the Hearts of Jesus and Mary.

IC XC NIKA

 

[GodsElect]

There is truly no way to make a dead man alive.
With man this is impossible with God all things are possible.

 

[whosebob]

"But we are all like an unclean thing, and all our righteousness are like filthy rags; we all fade as a leaf, and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away. (Isaiah 64:6)

"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith–and this not from youselves, it is the gift of God–not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do " (Eph. 2:8,9).

SO lets keep saying your works will get you in heaven

JMJ + OBT​

Oh yes, the Catholic Church teaches us to believe every word of those Scriptures you quoted, but we understand them in the entire context of Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition. Seriously, if you would like to learn more about the Church’s teaching in this regard, then I suggest you CAREFULLY read and re-read the following web pages, and then get back to us with some criticism based on their contents:

scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s1c3a2.htm
scripturecatholic.com/justification.html

In the Hearts of Jesus and Mary.

IC XC NIKA

 

[whosebob]

There is truly no way to make a dead man alive.
With man this is impossible with God all things are possible.

JMJ + OBT​

Sounds like a nice way to subtly say you’re bowing out of this “fight,” which from the beginning I suspected you didn’t have the fortitude to continue to its supernatural conclusion – your conversion to the Catholic Faith!

In Christ.

IC XC NIKA

 

[GodsElect]

You keep trying to contradict scipture with other scripture you havent’t once tried to get into the context of any scriptures that I have shown you. Thats the way you Catholics are, When Gods word says one thing you say No but its says this this this and this with out even getting into the context of what even those scriptures are telling us. Sorry I am sad that you are so very decieved. May God bring you to a more better undersatnding of the truth and repentance. You will be in my Prayers.

 

[dosdog]

There is truly no way to make a dead man alive.

Doors is always open we can help you

The purpose of The Coming Home Network International (CHNetwork) is to provide fellowship, encouragement and support for pastors and laymen of other traditions (Protestant, Orthodox, etc…) who are somewhere along the journey or have already converted to the Catholic Church. The CHNetwork is committed to assisting and standing beside all inquirers, serving as a friend and an advocate.

chnetwork.org/

The Journey Home with Marcus Grodi
ewtn.com/vondemand/audio/seriessearchprog.asp?seriesID=-6892289&T1=

Household of Faith with Kris Franklin and Rosalind Moss
ewtn.com/vondemand/audio/seriessearchprog.asp?seriesID=6124&T1=faith

Household of Faith - Now That We’re Catholic! with Kris and Rosalind
ewtn.com/vondemand/audio/seriessearchprog.asp?seriesID=6623&T1=faith

 

[GodsElect]

false religion you are storing up more wrath for the day of judgement!!!

 

[whosebob]

false religion you are storing up more wrath for the day of judgement!!!

JMJ + OBT​

If I turned around and said the same words back to you, on what basis could we determine whether you were right and I was wrong, or vice versa? On the Bible alon… oh wait, we’ve already talked about why the Bible doesn’t comprise the whole of the teachings of Christ and His Apostles, and you never provided an answer to our challenges to you in that regard.

May Our Lord bless you and keep you.

In the Hearts of Jesus and Mary.

IC XC NIKA

 

[repentantsinner]

We can talk about history and events in history all night. However, Until you admit that you are nothing and can do nothing without the Grace of God. You are lost, and your heart has been hardened to the truth that God chooses whom he will give salvation to.

Q: If you were 100 steps away from God and God came 99 steps to save you. How many steps would you have to take to be saved.

A1: One. If this is your answer. You have missed Gods gift. He has not opened your heart to understand his word. This should create fear in your heart, because you are not his child.

Prov. 9: 10 “The fear of the Lord is the beinning of wisdon” And the knowledge of the Holy One is understanding.

Because saying you have to make that step for your Salvation, completely undermines God’s ultimate power, and Jesus’ work on the cross.

Rom 9: 14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not!
15 For He says to Moses, "I WILL have mercy on whomever I WILL have mercy, and I WILL have compassion on whomever I WILL have compassion

If you recall what Jesus’ last words were. “IT IS DONE”

The work for our salvation is completed, and had been since the foundation of this world.

Rom 8: 29 For whom He forekenw, He also PREDESTINED to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethern.
30 Moreover whom He PREDESTINED, these He also CALLED; whom He CALLED, these He also JUSTIFIED; and whom He JUSTIFIED, these He also GLORIFIED.

Does he come to save all men?

No, If that were true there would be none in Hell.

What about the unborn or little babe’s?

Rom 9: 11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to ELECTION might stand, not of WORKS but of Him who calls).

Our works are an outword sign of Gods Grace in our life not a neccessary step to our salvation. That in turn puts our salvation back in our hands not in Gods.

May god bless us if he so chooses!

 

[repentantsinner]

Doors is always open we can help you

I appreciate your effort but there is no man that can help me. I am a wicked sinner.

God is the only one that Saves

If it is Gods Providence

 

[dosdog]

I appreciate your effort but there is no man that can help me. I am a wicked sinner.

God is the only one that Saves

If it is Gods Providence

Do we earn our salvation? Definitely no. In Romans 6. 23:“The wages of sin [what we earn] is death, the free gift of God [what we do not earn] is eternal life.” And several times in St. Paul, e.g., in 1 Cor 6. 10 we see that we “inherit” the kingdom. Now when we inherit from our parents we do not say we earned the inheritance, though , on the other hand, by being bad enough long enough we could have earned to lose it. So, as a student put it, as to salvation,“you can’t earn it, but you can blow it.” So we get justification, being right with God, without any merit at all. But, when we have that, it makes us sons of the Father, and brothers of Christ - as such we have a claim to inherit. We did not earn that claim, but we could earn to lose it. So in 1 Cor 6:9-10 St. Paul gives a list of the chief great sins and sinners, adds that they "will not inherit the kingdom."We are not saved as individuals, or by our own power, but we are saved inasmuch as we are members of Christ. That means we must be like Him. Hence in Gal 5:13-26 Paul gives two lists: the fruits of the Spirit, and the works of the flesh. If we follow the flesh, we will die. We will not inherit. But we must follow the Spirit. Romans 8:9:“If anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.” - that Spirit leads us to do as Christ did, which means to avoid sin. We cannot say: If we have taken Christ as our Savior we can sin as much as we want. For faith includes obedience - cf. Romans1:5. We cannot say if we have faith we can disobey, for faith includes obedience.This is really the syn Christo theme of St. Paul: We must suffer with Him, die with Him, be buried with Him, rise with Him, ascend with Him (cf. Romans 8. 17; 6:3-8; Col. 3:1-4; Eph. 2:5-6; Rom 8:13. We should notice too the fact that there are two stages, sometimes called objective redemption and subjective redemption. The objective redemtion is the work of earning a claim to all forgiveness and grace – we do not contribute to that at all, Christ did it for us. The subjective redemption is the process of giving out that forgiveness and grace thoughout all subsequent ages, even today. It is in that that we need to be like Christ to share in the claim He generated.

Our part in the subjective redemption is had by being like Christ in suffering and other things. God likes this as part of His love of good order. Summa I.19.5.c., paraphrased (literal is very crude) says: God in His love of good order likes to have one thing in place to serve as a reason or title for giving the second thing, even though that thing does not really move Him. Hence, in the objective redemption, He was pleased to use the Blessed Mother (whose ability to do anything came from her Son). In the subjective redemption, He uses her, the Saints, and us.

ewtn.com/library/SCRIPTUR/EARNSAL.TXT

 

[whosebob]

We can talk about history and events in history all night. However, Until you admit …

JMJ + OBT​

Sorry, I’m off to bed now, but I’ll try to take the time to answer your post in a more personal manner tomorrow. Until then, here is a brief “outline” of the Catholic Church’s Biblical and Apostolic approach to these issues you’ve raised:

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

1691 “Christian, recognize your dignity and, now that you share in God’s own nature, do not return to your former base condition by sinning. Remember who is your head and of whose body you are a member. Never forget that you have been rescued from the power of darkness and brought into the light of the Kingdom of God.”(1)

1692 The Symbol of the faith [the Apostles’ Creed] confesses the greatness of God’s gifts to man in his work of creation, and even more in redemption and sanctification. What faith confesses, the sacraments communicate: by the sacraments of rebirth, Christians have become “children of God,”(2) “partakers of the divine nature.”(3) Coming to see in the faith their new dignity, Christians are called to lead henceforth a life “worthy of the gospel of Christ.”(4) They are made capable of doing so by the grace of Christ and the gifts of his Spirit, which they receive through the sacraments and through prayer.

1693 Christ Jesus always did what was pleasing to the Father,(5) and always lived in perfect communion with him. Likewise Christ’s disciples are invited to live in the sight of the Father “who sees in secret,”(6) in order to become “perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect.”(7)

1694 Incorporated into Christ by Baptism, Christians are “dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus” and so participate in the life of the Risen Lord.(8) Following Christ and united with him,(9) Christians can strive to be “imitators of God as beloved children, and walk in love”(10) by conforming their thoughts, words and actions to the “mind . . . which is yours in Christ Jesus,”(11) and by following his example.(12)

1695 “Justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God,”(13) “sanctified . . . [and] called to be saints,”(14) Christians have become the temple of the Holy Spirit.(15) This “Spirit of the Son” teaches them to pray to the Father(16) and, having become their life, prompts them to act so as to bear “the fruit of the Spirit”(17) by charity in action. Healing the wounds of sin, the Holy Spirit renews us interiorly through a spiritual transformation.(18) He enlightens and strengthens us to live as “children of light” through “all that is good and right and true.”(19)

1696 The way of Christ “leads to life”; a contrary way “leads to destruction.”(20) The Gospel parable of the two ways remains ever present in the catechesis of the Church; it shows the importance of moral decisions for our salvation: “There are two ways, the one of life, the other of death; but between the two, there is a great difference.”(21)

1699 Life in the Holy Spirit fulfills the vocation of man. This life is made up of divine charity and human solidarity. It is graciously offered as salvation.

1700 The dignity of the human person is rooted in his creation in the image and likeness of God; it is fulfilled in his vocation to divine beatitude. It is essential to a human being freely to direct himself to this fulfillment. By his deliberate actions, the human person does, or does not, conform to the good promised by God and attested by moral conscience. Human beings make their own contribution to their interior growth; they make their whole sentient and spiritual lives into means of this growth. With the help of grace they grow in virtue, avoid sin, and if they sin they entrust themselves as did the prodigal son (Lk 15:11-32) to the mercy of our Father in heaven. In this way they attain to the perfection of charity.

1 St. Leo the Great, Sermo 22 in nat. Dom., 3L 54,192C.
2 Jn 1:12; 1 Jn 3:1.
3 2 Pet 1:4.
4 Phil 1:27.
5 Cf. Jn 8:29.
6 Mt 6:6.
7 Mt 5:48.
8 Rom 6:11 and cf. 6:5; cf. Col 2:12.
9 Cf. Jn 15:5.
10 Eph 5:1-2.
11 Phil 2:5.
12 Cf. Jn 13:12-16.
13 2 Cor 6:11.
14 1 Cor 1:2.
15 Cf. 1 Cor 6:19.
16 Cf. Gal 4:6.
17 Gal 5:22,25.
18 Cf. Eph 4:23.
19 Eph 5:8, 9.
20 Mt 7:13; cf. Deut 30:15-20.
21 Didache 1,1:SCh 248, 140.

Your comments on the above quotes of the CCC are welcome, of course.

In Christ.

IC XC NIKA

 

[RCCDefender]

The Septuagint: It was good enough for Christ - It’s good enough for me!

 

[RCCDefender]

Council of Rome

“Now indeed we must treat of the divine scriptures, what the universal Catholic Church accepts and what she ought to shun. The order of the Old Testament begins here: Genesis, one book; Exodus, one book; Leviticus, one book; Numbers, one book; Deuteronomy, one book; Joshua [Son of] Nave, one book; Judges, one book; Ruth, one book; Kings, four books [that is, 1 and 2 Samuel and 1 and 2 Kings]; Paralipomenon [Chronicles], two books; Psalms, one book; Solomon, three books: Proverbs, one book, Ecclesiastes, one book, [and] Canticle of Canticles [Song of Songs], one book; likewise Wisdom, one book; Ecclesiasticus [Sirach], one book . . . . Likewise the order of the historical [books]: Job, one book; Tobit, one book; Esdras, two books [Ezra and Nehemiah]; Esther, one book; Judith, one book; Maccabees, two books” (Decree of Pope Damasus [A.D. 382]).
Online Source