HISTORY OF THE BIBLE

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DennisS:
Agreed, the Catholic Church established a Canon, which is largely adhered to by Christians around the globe. This was a lengthy process, with several changes along the way. I hope you are not excluding Protestants from their historical roots. This is not to suggest that there isn’t some contention regarding some books, but we do have substantial amounts of commonality. The “inter-testimonial period” from Malachi to Matthew is the largest area of disagreement as to what should be considered Scripture. I have at least three Bible versions with the apocrypha, and I do read them. Protestants and Catholics have different reasons for what they accept as Scripture, and even the process of what is accepted as Scripture. We won’t solve all the disagreements over Canon, but it is good to understand where we differ, and where we agree.
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There has never been a change in the canon, once it was settled by the Catholic Church; and you’re right, the process of determining the contents was lengthy. The table of contents of the Bible changed only when Luther removed eleven writings from his German translation (1522-1534). Four of them from the NT were later replaced by Luther’s followers, but Protestant Bibles are still missing the 7 OT “books” plus parts of Esther and Daniel.

The historical roots of Protestants date from the 16th century. If this what you were referring to? There wasn’t a Protestant in sight when the Bible was formed.

The Church selected and canonized 27 of her own writings and named them the New Testament. The reason 49 Jewish writings were canonized and named the Old Testament is that the Catholic Church inherited them from Christ and the Apostles. The Greek Septuagint was used in the first century synagogues where Jesus and the Apostles were trained in Judaism and later taught Christianity.

JMJ Jay
 
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DennisS:
Jesus did not use or quote from the LXX. Your arguments are anything but convincing. The LXX was too common? Where? The Hebrew scrolls were read by the people, and quoted by Jesus for teaching. The LXX was much lesser known and was not trusted in the church at the time of Jesus.
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“. . . the scripture of the Christian community from the outset was the Old Testament, in most cases in its Greek translation (the Septuagint). Paul quoted from many of its books in his letters; Jesus is remembered to have used it as authoritative. And the Gospel writers also made use of it in their interpretations of Jesus’s mission, understanding him to have fulfilled the promises about the Messiah contained in the Jewish scriptures.”

Quoted from Understanding the New Testament, Fourth Edition, Howard Clark Kee, Prentice-Hall, 1983, p. 375

Kee is a Methodist minister and biblical scholar.
 
Bumped for the readers of the “Why did King James remove those books from the Bible” thread.

Catholics who know the history of the Bible are immune to Protestant attempts to persuade them with their “Sola Scriptura” arguments.😃

JMJ Jay
 
Hello Katholikos! I haven’t visited these forums in several weeks and then when I logged on today I was pleasantly suprised to see your name. Hope all is well with you.

Great thread. Keep it up!! 👍
 
Little Mary said:
“ta Biblia” means The Book
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as it follows that forms of the word for library are:

bibliography
bibliotheque (french for library - should be similar for spanish and latin)
bibliophile (lover of books)

cheers!

michel
 
FYI - in a class I learned how to remember those 7 books that were taken out of the Protestant bible:

It’s a name: J.T.McWeb

J=Judith, T=Tobit, Mc=1 and 2 Maccabees, W=Wisdom,
E=Ecclesiasticus, B=Baruch

I find this very helpful when trying to remember those books.
 
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Katholikos:
Bumped for the readers of the “Why did King James remove those books from the Bible” thread.

Catholics who know the history of the Bible are immune to Protestant attempts to persuade them with their “Sola Scriptura” arguments.😃

JMJ Jay
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Katholikos thanks so much for this information! Great stuff! Is there a book that I can find the declarations of Rome, Carthage, etc. regarding the Bible? Or maybe some other source that I can use?
 
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tkdnick:
Katholikos thanks so much for this information! Great stuff! Is there a book that I can find the declarations of Rome, Carthage, etc. regarding the Bible? Or maybe some other source that I can use?
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The decrees of the Councils are online. If you have any trouble finding them, let me know. Catholic answers has a great little book that has the history:

Where We Got the Bible by Henry G. Graham

This is an old book (1911), but it’s great reading and very informative. Graham was a Presbyterian minister from Scotland turned Catholic.

It made me want to become Catholic all over again:D.

JMJ Jay
 
Here are Luther’s prefaces to Hebrews, James and Jude, and Revelation from his German Bible (1522 - 34), explaining why he did not consider them to be scripture. This also includes Luther’s Preface to the New Testament.

I posted this on another thread, but it also belongs here for anyone who wants the facts about how Luther cut the Bible.

This is a site for the use of WELS – Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod – students.

wls.wels.net/students/coursematerial/Reformationhistory/LutherReadingProject/Chapter%2011%20-%20New%20Testament%20Translation/Prefaces%20to%20the%20New%20Testament%20-%20LW%2035,%20357-362,%20394-399.doc

JMJ Jay
 
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Katholikos:
The decrees of the Councils are online. If you have any trouble finding them, let me know. Catholic answers has a great little book that has the history:

Where We Got the Bible by Henry G. Graham

This is an old book (1911), but it’s great reading and very informative. Graham was a Presbyterian minister from Scotland turned Catholic.

It made me want to become Catholic all over again:D.

JMJ Jay
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I posted the links to this above.
 
bumped for Randell

I recommend reading all of this thread, starting from the beginning, so you’ll get a good overview of how the Bible came into existence. Protestants think every church came out of the Bible, as all of their Protestant churches did. They read the Bible and try to figure out what to believe. But the Bible came out of the Catholic Church!

Christianity was originally the sum total of the beliefs of the living, teaching Catholic Church. The idea that it was based on the Scriptures came from the 16th century and the so-called Reformers. (I call them Deformers.)

JMJ Jay
 
Welcome back Kath. I hope that you are doing better. Had I known I would have helped with prayer…

I look forward to our future discussions.

God Bless
Mat
 
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Katholikos:
bumped for Randell

I recommend reading all of this thread, starting from the beginning, so you’ll get a good overview of how the Bible came into existence. Protestants think every church came out of the Bible, as all of their Protestant churches did. They read the Bible and try to figure out what to believe. But the Bible came out of the Catholic Church!

Christianity was originally the sum total of the beliefs of the living, teaching Catholic Church. The idea that it was based on the Scriptures came from the 16th century and the so-called Reformers. (I call them Deformers.)

JMJ Jay
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Thanks for bumping up this thread. I has been very informative. Since I am a “baby Catholic” I would like to read from where you received your information. (this may take years) No disrespect to you, but I have been mislead many times in my search of faith and I have asked God to show me the way. I have felt the need to get information from text and sites like these. So if you can share any text or sites I would be greatful.
 
Can someone help us? There’s a thread in the apolgetics forum labeled Bible, we could use some help there. Peace out!
 
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Randell:
Thanks for bumping up this thread. I has been very informative. Since I am a “baby Catholic” I would like to read from where you received your information. (this may take years) No disrespect to you, but I have been mislead many times in my search of faith and I have asked God to show me the way. I have felt the need to get information from text and sites like these. So if you can share any text or sites I would be greatful.
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You should always demand the evidence and check the sources for anything you are told concerning the Christian religion. Be careful of the sites you accept – there’s a lot of fraudulent and misleading info on the Net.

We must begin with the history of the Church. While various Early Church Fathers mention individual writings which later became the New Testament, no one knew with certainty which writings were “scripture” and which were not until the Church settled the canon, beginning in 382 at the Council of Rome. The decrees of that council are online. I cut and pasted them at the beginning of this thread. I also have the decrees of the Council of Carthage (397) if you want them. Before that, many, many Christian writings were circulated among the local churches and read aloud at the Liturgy (Mass). Those writings not accepted into the NT are called “NT apocrypha” and can be found at various websites, for example:
earlychristianwritings.com/apocrypha.html

You can search online under “New Testament apocrypha” for other sites.

The letters of St. Paul and the four Gospels were accepted the earliest (source: Preface to the NT, RSV). 2 Peter 3:15 (perhaps not written until the first quarter of the second century) mentions Paul’s letters in reference to “other scriptures” (meaning the Septuagint OT) but unfortunately, does not list them, so we have no idea which of Paul’s letters he had in mind. Three of Paul’s letters were lost in antiquity, so they’re missing from the NT. They’re mentioned in 1 Cor 5:9, 2 Cor 2:3, and 1Thess 4:16.

Check out the making of the NT canon here:

ntcanon.org/

The two earliest histories of the Church are the Book of Acts (which is not “history” in the modern sense of the word) and the History of the Church by Eusebius, Bishop of Caesaria, written c. 314 - 324.

You can find Eusebius’ history on line at www.newadvent.org
or at bookstores. My copy is translated by G.A. Williamson, Dorset Press, New York, 1965. At the time Eusebius wrote, 1 Clement was “Recognized,” but Hebrews, James, 2 Peter, 2 and 3 John, Jude, and Revelation were still “Disputed.” When the Church declared the contents of the Christian scriptures at end of the fourth century, which she named the New Testament, 1 Clement didn’t make the cut, and all of the “Disputed” writings were accepted.

Here’s a good site with a lot of biblical information:

scborromeo.org/

One thing is apparent: The Church is almost 400 years older than the Bible. That means that Sola Scriptura (Bible Only), one of the foundational “pillars” of Protestantism, is a fallacy from the get go.

I’ll hang with you to answer all your questions and provide documentation. Fire away.

JMJ Jay
 
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Katholikos:
I became ill and have not been on the forum for several months.
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We’re all thankful for your ministry for the truth of the Catholic faith. Keep up the good work!

I’ll be praying for your continued health. :blessyou:
 
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Katholikos:
You should always demand the evidence and check the sources for anything you are told concerning the Christian religion. Be careful of the sites you accept – there’s a lot of fraudulent and misleading info on the Net.

We must begin with the history of the Church. While various Early Church Fathers mention individual writings which later became the New Testament, no one knew with certainty which writings were “scripture” and which were not until the Church settled the canon, beginning in 382 at the Council of Rome. The decrees of that council are online. I cut and pasted them at the beginning of this thread. I also have the decrees of the Council of Carthage (397) if you want them. Before that, many, many Christian writings were circulated among the local churches and read aloud at the Liturgy (Mass). Those writings not accepted into the NT are called “NT apocrypha” and can be found at various websites, for example:
earlychristianwritings.com/apocrypha.html

You can search online under “New Testament apocrypha” for other sites.

The letters of St. Paul and the four Gospels were accepted the earliest (source: Preface to the NT, RSV). 2 Peter 3:15 (perhaps not written until the first quarter of the second century) mentions Paul’s letters in reference to “other scriptures” (meaning the Septuagint OT) but unfortunately, does not list them, so we have no idea which of Paul’s letters he had in mind. Three of Paul’s letters were lost in antiquity, so they’re missing from the NT. They’re mentioned in 1 Cor 5:9, 2 Cor 2:3, and 1Thess 4:16.

Check out the making of the NT canon here:

ntcanon.org/

The two earliest histories of the Church are the Book of Acts (which is not “history” in the modern sense of the word) and the History of the Church by Eusebius, Bishop of Caesaria, written c. 314 - 324.

You can find Eusebius’ history on line at www.newadvent.org
or at bookstores. My copy is translated by G.A. Williamson, Dorset Press, New York, 1965. At the time Eusebius wrote, 1 Clement was “Recognized,” but Hebrews, James, 2 Peter, 2 and 3 John, Jude, and Revelation were still “Disputed.” When the Church declared the contents of the Christian scriptures at end of the fourth century, which she named the New Testament, 1 Clement didn’t make the cut, and all of the “Disputed” writings were accepted.

Here’s a good site with a lot of biblical information:

scborromeo.org/

One thing is apparent: The Church is almost 400 years older than the Bible. That means that Sola Scriptura (Bible Only), one of the foundational “pillars” of Protestantism, is a fallacy from the get go.

I’ll hang with you to answer all your questions and provide documentation. Fire away.

JMJ Jay
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Thanks, this has opened up a new “world” for me. I am a current college student and I don’t have a lot of time to research now I do read some but I really want to dive into it when I graduate.
 
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