Holding hands at the Lord's Prayer

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Man, you could cut the pride on this thread with a knife!!! Oh, I"ll just stand on my head, oh I"ll just kiss your face during the sign of peace, etc etc blablabla. Know us by our love??? If the Holy Spirit moves someone to change their hand positions, so what??? Pray for them, and move on!!! I am sorry, but this topic is so frustrating. I think everyone here needs to SERIOUSLY examine his own heart, because I’m seeing a lot of prideful comments around here.

jp2fan
 
While your post was heated, I agree with your JP2. “If the Holy Spirit moves someone to change their hand positions, so what?” nails my position on the head.
 
Exalt - no I don’t think it is only the U.S. - but I could be wrong … wouldn’t be the first time.
 
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buffalo:
Since many here think its OK to do what they want and not what is proscribed, I think I will stand on my head during the Lord’s Prayer.
Just don’t hold your hands out…
 
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jp2fan:
Man, you could cut the pride on this thread with a knife!!! Oh, I"ll just stand on my head, oh I"ll just kiss your face during the sign of peace, etc etc blablabla. Know us by our love??? If the Holy Spirit moves someone to change their hand positions, so what??? Pray for them, and move on!!! I am sorry, but this topic is so frustrating. I think everyone here needs to SERIOUSLY examine his own heart, because I’m seeing a lot of prideful comments around here.

jp2fan
I don’t think the prideful folks are speaking of individual expressions of devotion that people are moved to express. They are speaking of deviations that are incorporated into the liturgy in certain parishes to the extent that they establish norms not consistent with the GIRM.

The rituals and postures of the liturgy are important, not prideful. Ritual is one of the ways the Church reinforces its teaching and passes on its history.

The risk is that by establishing an anything goes environment in liturgy the ritual lines are blurred which could be a cause of many of the problems the Church is facing (fewer vocations, diminished role of priests, reduced belief in the real presence in the Eucharist, etc.).

There might be a bit of the “I’m more Catholic than you” thing going on here and there, but I think most of the posters who value the rituals and gestures of the mass have their hearts in the right place.
 
I usually participate in forums with a mind to learn and understand what is right, correct, liturgically and doctrinally. I would assume that when someone posts what the Church teaches there is no pride involved, no judgment involved but just passing on what they have learned to be true.

It is probably good to cite the appropriate document but even then some people will object to fraternal correction and view it as a personal judgment or criticism.

OTOH some people come to forums just to complain, to express their opinions which may in some instances be contrary to Church teachings or just to hear themselves talk and with no intent to learn or willingness to change.

It is difficult to stand by as a lurker and not correct something that is contrary to church teaching and probably would not be the moral thing to do anyway.

Correction can be the charitable thing to do as most parents realize (sooner or later;) )
 
We hold hands in our parish but during the flu season we are reminded not too and during the peace be with you’s we are just to look at the person and speak the words or nod our head, we had a bad flu epedemic and some of our elderly members were very concerned that they would contact flu virus and I can’t blame them. I’m not big on the holding hands during the Lord’s prayer, I’ll do it of course if someone reaches for me but sometimes I just bow my head and close my eyes and let the people around me get the point I just would rather not and I don’t think they care either way. 😉
 
I have found that if you don’t take the hand of the person next to you, no lightling strikes. I am freindly, but when I am saying the Lord’s Prayer, that is between me and my Lord. I am focusing on Him, and those around me respect this. If you don’t want to hold hands, don’t do it because everyone else is holding hands. Let God guide you!
 
While everyone here as made very valid points as far as the rubics of the Mass, there is one thing that is bothering me. Referring to a fellow Catholic celebrating Mass as a “stranger” is very demeaning, IMHO. That person is there to receive the Eucharist, the same reason that you are there. Maybe it is because I am a member of a small parish, but I attend Mass with very few “strangers.” I have made an attempt to get to know almost everyone in my Parish, and to make them feel welcome every Sunday. Now that I am on the Parish Council, that feeling of community facilitates my job with reaching out to every parishioner in the pews. I would hope that everyone would try to meet a new person every week, so that we can truly grow as a Church. :tiphat:
 
Papadon

Well if you were at my parish, I probably wouldn’t still feel like a stranger after 3 years. I have gone to Knight’s breakfasts, tried to start up conversations, sat near some of the people who sit in the same areas as I do at Mass, smile friendly smiles, etc. I have signed up to do volunteer typing, computer work, liturgy year after year- no one has ever called me - maybe they think you have nothing to offer anyone if you are in your 70’s - or maybe because I live in a predominantly hispanic area where many fail to learn English they can’t talk to me. Also I find socially the church in many parts of the country is not oriented to older, single folks - lots of activities for young adults, teens, couples, families but not much for older community - this in an area where retirement communities abound. Maybe they feel those “closed” communities take care of that but not all of us live in closed
communities.

In a previous place I lived, a smaller town which may make a difference in the friendliness of the place, we had a program (and I was on the younger end of the scale then). But we were urged to look around us and see if there were single elderly people regularly attending Mass and to “adopt” one. This meant inviting them to lunch or breakfast with the rest of the family after Mass if we did that sort of thing. Offering to take one to doctor appointment or shopping or maybe including them in holiday dinners if we found they had no local family. Probably in a metropolitan area people are more reluctant to reach out to “strangers” even at Mass.

But you seem sensitive to the needs of your fellow parishoners
 
I do not believe in holding hands during the Lord’s prayer. I don’t do it and won’t do it if i’m standing next to people that do. I feel like i’m in a tent revival when that happens. Are we Catholic or are we Protestant?
Blondeone
 
I was surprised when I returned to Mass after be away for many years and someone grabbed my hand during the Lord’s Prayer. I do not like holding a strangers hand and try to avoid it, even if it means that I get a dirty look from the person next to me.
 
Interesting range of opinions on this topic.

I too, was surprised, after “reverting” in my local, fairly orthodox parish and getting reacquainted with the liturgy, to find on traveling, that other parishes have added hand holding to the Mass.

It made me feel like I was suddenly at the family table after my sister had joined the “born again” movement and was changing Thanksgiving dinner prayer into a touchy feely sermon that I didn’t like at all.

After my first experience with this “change” and returning to our home parish, I commented to Father that it had felt like I was suddenly in a Protestant service. He simply smiled and later invited me to attend when the Bishop rolled out the changes to the Rubrics a couple of years ago. I was surprised to see the response of other parishes when they were told NOT to include hand holding, these mostly clerical and religious were openly disobedient to the hierarchy on matters of liturgical norms.

So, off I went, confirmed by the Bishop in my distaste for hand holding. I attended a number of different masses during travels. While I prefer to simply hold my hands together in prayer and close my eyes, I have come to the conclusion that when my not holding hands is done from a place of prideful “I know how it’s supposed to be done, and I don’t go for that Protestant stuff in my Catholic Church” place, my charity is slipping.

I agree with one who said here that we need to be careful that we not sound like a gong in preaching without charity, even when we do so without words. So now, while I make keeping my hands to myself my default posture, even while in a foreign parish, if doing so requires perceived lack of charity, I will hold hands.

I believe it is the primary responsibility of the Pastor to teach his flock. This does not mean I wouldn’t attempt to make a charitable comment to him regarding the practice. I’ve been known to couch it in gentle, “Lovely Parish, we’re enjoying our visit. - head cocked here - I’m surprised to still find the hand holding during the Our Father. I thought it’s been dropped in the recent changes to the GIRM?”

I made a similar comment during Holy Week a few years ago, when the Church we attended had all the statues draped. The poor nun, she had only just instituted the changes a couple of years before, and then the information with the changes to the GIRM requested such things not be done. My comment to her answer was just a quiet smile, nod of the head and an agreeable comment that “Yes, the Catholic Church isn’t one for quickly passing fashions.” It’s my hope that she on first hearing could be confused enough to not know of passing fashion refers to covering or not covering statues, but upon reflection in private decide that allowing these things to be decided in such a way as to ensure that the liturgy retains it’s form over generations is best managed from Rome and with our following the norms prescribed for the Universal Church.

CARose
 
Karl Keating:
In America, we shake hands with one another at the sign of peace. In Japan parishioners bow to one another. In other countries there may be other conventions.

At the sign of peace we’re saying “I’m at peace with you” or “I feel reconciled to you.” We convey that through words (“The peace of Christ be with you”) and through an action that is friendly but not intimate or intrusive (since most of those around us likely will be strangers).

This act of demonstrating reconciliation is undermined by holding hands at the Our Father. That prayer comes immediately before the sign of peace. In those parishes where people hold hands during that prayer, they are engaging in an action that is much more intimate than a handshake.

If we hold hands during the Our Father, it undercuts the significance of the following act, since holding hands trumps shaking hands. The sign of peace withers. A prescribed part of the liturgy (the sign of peace) loses much of its significance (much of its “sign value”) when parishioners hold hands at the Our Father.

(It’s good to say “I love you” to your spouse, but if you say that to everyone you meet on the street, your spouse will feel your words have been devalued.)

Another point: In our culture, hand-holding is approved of when adults hold the hands of young children, when boyfriend and girlfriend hold hands, and when married couples hold hands (though this commonly stops a few weeks after the honeymoon 😉 ).

We do not hold hands with strangers to whom we are introduced. We shake hands instead. Holding hands in such a situation would be perceived as too intimate. And in some cases, holding hands even suggests something unsavory, as when we see two men holding hands as they walk down the sidewalk.

Can anyone think of any situation, other than at the Our Father during Mass, in which people commonly hold hands with strangers? I can’t, and I think there is a reason: Hand holding is a sign of a certain intimacy. It’s not something we take lightly.

To hold hands with strangers at Mass strikes me as artificial, and it has become a detriment to a proper appreciation of the liturgy. Yes, it is easy enough to avoid, but I think it remains a problem. It is one kind of problem for those who don’t wish to hold hands, and it is another kind of problem (the problem of not understanding the role of signs in the Mass) for those who like the practice.
will you tell my pastor this please
 
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CARose:
So, off I went, confirmed by the Bishop in my distaste for hand holding. I attended a number of different masses during travels. While I prefer to simply hold my hands together in prayer and close my eyes, I have come to the conclusion that when my not holding hands is done from a place of prideful “I know how it’s supposed to be done, and I don’t go for that Protestant stuff in my Catholic Church” place, my charity is slipping.
I was thinking about this too, whether or not it was prideful, but I believe NOT holding hands can be a charitable act. Is it really charitable to let someone continue in error? When my children do something wrong, I correct them in what I hope is loving charity. If someone has a problem with me not holding hands with them during the Our Father, I would be happy to explain why after Mass. In a charitable manner, of course! :tiphat:
 
I don’t think anyone intends to be mean-spirited on either side of the argument. People are just expressing themselves, some more strongly than others. That is what it means to have a discussion, isn’t it?

I read a huge article about this and now (naturally) I can’t find it anywhere. For what it’s worth, I gathered that when the priest extends his hands in the orans position, he is extending them to include us, the parishioners, so it is unnecessary for us to also extend our hands. That basically carries over to hand-holding. When holding hands or extending our own, we are putting intimacy on top of or in place of what our pastor is already doing for us.

Does that make sense (my wording, that is?)

God bless.
 
I’m not a big fan of hand holding. However, if the person next to me (especially a family member) spontaneously grabs my hand, I’m not going to refuse. I don’t think it should be encouraged by Priests, considering it isn’t in the rubrics.

I’m also fairly sure that the rubrics for the nuptial Mass do not include direction for the Bride and Groom to kiss. Yet this is a long standing tradition that nobody seems to be discouraging. Why the double standard? :whacky:
 
The bride and groom are not kissing strangers and the kiss is not passed around through the entire congregation - what a silly question this seems - a one time kiss between two people compared to the continual chain of hand holding week after week. I do not see a real problem if the husband holds his wifes hand or the children’s but this whole church, bending around aisles, reaching behind and so on into one big chain of hand holding is not the same thing at all.

And they are not kissing during a time delegated to praying, are they?

But most of all - the PRIEST is not kissing the bride and groom - or at least I hope not.

This is really not a comparable situation at all.
 
Then what about the tradition of the triple cross before the Gospel reading…I was listening to Karl on the radio, and he seemed to think that it was not prescribed in the rubrics.

So by the logic that if it’s not prescribed, we shouldn’t do it - perhaps we should not make the triple cross sign either.

from the GIRM
  1. The reading of the Gospel is the high point of the Liturgy of the Word. The Liturgy itself teaches that great reverence is to be shown to it by setting it off from the other readings with special marks of honor: whether the minister appointed to proclaim it prepares himself by a blessing or prayer; or the faithful, standing as they listen to it being read, through their acclamations acknowledge and confess Christ present and speaking to them; or the very marks of reverence are given to the Book of the Gospels.
No mention of the triple cross…
 
This is a “custom” that dates back before Vatican II and if I remember correctly the symbolism is when making the sign on the forehead with the thumb “in my mind” and then “on my lips” and then “in my heart”.

I do it.

I don’t nudge my neighbors and request that they do it also - it is a “private” devotion, not one I insist others join me in doing.

I also (also a leftover from Pre V II) strike my breast when the bell is rung during the consecration and at the words Mea Culpa.

These long time traditions of the RC Church, not some new invention by the people in some parishes in some of the cities in some of the states in the U.S.

And while it is not forbidden, it certainly is not approved and as far as the priest goes - it is out and out wrong for him to hold hands instead of following the prescribed rubic of using the orans position while praying the Pater Noster.
 
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