Holding hands at the Lord's Prayer

  • Thread starter Thread starter Veronica_Anne
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
(deogratias, I would have sent you a PM about this but you must have your PM’s turned off)

"[the triple cross] is a “custom” that dates back before Vatican II … I also (also a leftover from Pre V II) strike my breast when the bell is rung during the consecration and at the words Mea Culpa.

These long time traditions of the RC Church, not some new invention by the people in some parishes in some of the cities in some of the states in the U.S."

Little things like this interest me. Not for any particular reason. Were these customs ever written down anywhere? If that is what they were - customs - then I suspect not.

Another thing that “some” parishes and priests do is make the sign of the cross at the Penitential Rite. Is that another “custom” or what’s the story there?

Also, for bowing one’s head at various places during Mass. This is much more noticeable at daily mass when I attend it, where I suppose the people consider themselves more pious. And some of our altar servers bow their heads so much, they look like giant Bobblehead dolls up there.
 
This is one abuse that really distracts from the Lord’s Prayer. It takes the our attention away from the Father and toward each other. It really distracts me when I see others and even more when they reach out and grab my hand. So I am forced to put my head down and clasp my hands in prayer so I can at least concentrate on the prayer and give my attention to the Lord.

I think I’m going to start printing up tracts that explain why it is liturgically incorrect! Sometimes people are just not informed or think it just feels good so why not.

God bless you all and pray for reform in the Liturgy.

RJ
in Harrisburg, PA
 
**Melman - **

Initially the Sign of the Cross was made with thumb, usually on the forehead but sometimes on the lips and chest. This small Sign of the Cross was in common use by the end of the 4th century and is still used today at every Mass, with the sacraments of Baptism, Confirmation, and the Anointing of the Sick. It also is used for marking the forehead with ashes on Ash Wednesday.
**The routine at Mass of making the small Sign of the Cross on our foreheads, lips, and chest before the reading of eh Gospel also has meaning. In doing this, we acknowledge our belief in the Word of God, our commitment to spread God’s Word in our daily lives, and our awareness of God’s presence in our hearts.

So while making the Sign of the Cross may sometimes seem like a routine action, it is not. It marks us as Christians and is a visible expression of our belief and hope in God."

Jungmann in his “Mass of the Roman Rite” says:

“The desire to grasp the sacred word of God and to secure its blessings … found a lasting expression in … the sign of the cross. In the ninth century for the first time do we come across the practice of the faithful signing a cross on their foreheads after the deacon greets them. Then we hear of another custom, the deacon and all those present imprinting the cross on forehead and breast after the words “A reading of the holy gospel, etc.”. About the eleventh century mention is made of forehead, mouth, and breast, and since that time also of the signing of the book… The original idea of this signing of oneself is probably indicated in the scriptural text frequently cited in this connection, the quotation about the wicked enemy who is anxious to take the seed of the word of God away from the hearts of the hearers (Mark 4:15)… But another explanation takes over by degrees; an ever-increasing stress is placed on the readiness to acknowledge God’s word with courage… The meaning is this: For the word which Christ brought and which is set down in this book we are willing to stand up with a mind that is open; we are ready to confess it with our mouth; and above all we are determined to safeguard it faithfully in our hearts.”

**It has always been a custom to “cross oneself” when passing a Catholic Church though I only see those of us of the older generations still doing this. The use of holy wter **** when making the sign, such as we do when we enter a church, also recalls our Baptism **and should bring to mind that we are born again of water and Spirit, thanks be to God.

continued in next post
**
 
** About your question during the penitential rite, my old Missal says when the priest says **

"I have sinned exceedingly in thought, word and deed, through my fault (strike breast three times) through my fault, through my most grevious fault."
Another instruction was during the Credo, at the words, "Who for us men, and for our salvation, came down from heaven (here all kneel) and was incarnate by the Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary and was also made man."
**Another custom at the elevation of the host during Mass, or public exposition of the Blessed Sacrament, devoutly say, “My Lord and My God” and offered an indulgence. - I still do this when the bell is rung (or even if it is not) at the elevation. That is what the ringing of the bell signifies here, an invitation to the people to adore Christ.****Some people strike their breasts then and also at the Agnus Dei and when they say "Lord I am not Worthy etc.) I was taught that this “breast striking” was ** a summons to repentance and symbolic of self-inflicted punishment of a contrite heart.(the heart residing inside the breast)

**I was also taught that we kneel to make ourselves small in God’s presence and to show our souls intention to bow down before God in deepest reverence. A sign of humility as it were. In the Russian Orthodox Church this is sometimes to lying prone before God as you may have seen pictures of priests doing at their ordination. **

Standing is another side of reverence toward God. If kneeling is for worship, then standing might be said to be a sign of vigilance and attention offering the same respect a soldier would when standing at attention and it is why we stand for the Gospel.
**Many of the actions we do presently and the past are done routinely without any thought given to their purpose and that’s a shame I think. **
Each word, each vestment, each action, each thing used in the liturgy have historical meaning and symbolism as part of the celebration of the Mass and that is why liturgists should learn these meanings before they thoughtlessly change and tinker with Mass which is often what leads to liturgical abuse - lack of understanding.
**I hope this is what you were interested in by your question:) **
 
I suspect that some may have taken some of my previous posts as saying what I did not intend.

Melman: if the shoe doesn’t fit, don’t wear it. What I am trying to convey is that
a) given the fact that both the GIRM and Redmptionis Sacramentum did not address the issue, and the complaints that have been generated for so long about hand holding, one could either draw the conclusion that it is permissible within the given rubrics, or, alternatively, it is of such minor importance as a violation of the rubrics that it did not merit a response.

b) there is more than one approach to law; the “Germanic” approach and the “Italian (or Mediterranian)” approach. Those who argue that it is not permitted (e.g. Karl Keating) are taking the Germanic approach to law. The Italian approach is not one of “anything goes”, but rather one which is less restrictive. Another way of saying it is that law can be absolute, or nuanced; that which is nuanced allows some leeway.

c) much of what is said in objection to holding hands is off the scale, both in terms of how terrible a violation of liturgical law it is, and in terms of charity to the person standing next to you.

d) there is a definite undercurrent among some of the comments in this thread of an attitude of “me and God”. See the comments about when we are a community, or whether or not we worship as community. There is also an implication that some of the individuals commenting do not seem to know many of their fello parishoners, and may not seem to want to. I still don’t know everyone personally in my parish (somewhere around 1000 families), but I know a lot; they are part of my community even though we come from about 4 different towns. So I rarely feel that the person next to me is a stranger. And if they were, I would not wish to make them feel unwelcome.

e) two highly respected Bishops (Chaput and George {he is also a Cardinal}) seem to have much less of a problem with the issue than many of the people in this, and related threads. They both would allow it at this point. And I don’t know anyone who could legitimatley accuse either of these men of being liberals.

f) I don’t promote holding hands; it is poor from a liturgical action standpoint, as it tends to cause movement which tends to the disruptive in terms of liturgical flow, especially if there is a tendency to move about to hold someone’s hand if they are not in the immediate vicinity. But those who are disturbed in a major way have a personal problem. It is mostly a minor disturbance.
 
Guess I am long winded.

To continue:

g) neither do I get disturbed when someone wants to hold hands during the Our Father. It is not Protestant in origin but Catholic. It is not causing a loss of belief in the True Presence (that is due to poor or non-existent catechesis, which has nothing to do with rubrics), nor is it causing a blurring or the sacramental priesthood. It is simply a sign of community.

h) I stand by my comment about having the attitude of the Pharisees to those who exclaim that this is abusive; Christ repeatedly excoriated the Pharisees for failing in charity and favoring a rigid stance in regard to a law. There seems to be a very strong element or rigidness in those who complain about how abusive this is, and in those who refuse to hold hands. Having said that, I have no tolerance for those who would force the issue the other way, and react with disdain at someone who won’t hold hands. And as for correcting handholders after Mass about how it is a violation of the rubrics, I revert to the comments by George and Chaput, and the choice of Rome to not address the issue twice recently. And, see the Dubium of Cardinal George about the GIRM rule requiring standing until all have received Communion. Rome’s response effectively admits that a literal reading would require all to stand until the last has received; what it says is that the rubric is not so rigidly intended.

i) which brings me to my last point; it would be hilarious if it were not so sad. Almost all of the complaints about standing completely through Communion were from the conservatives; they want to have their cake and eat it. The rubrics should bend when it suits their taste; and should be rigidly applied when it doesn’t. Can you say “Pharisee”? :whistle:
 
Melman - I just noticed I did not answer your question about bowing

Bowing the head (momentarily lower it to the chest) is usually done any time you hear the Name “Jesus”
Cross yourself and bow the head when the priest and the Crucifer walk down the aisle before and after Mass.

Not commonly known and practiced: any time you hear “Father, Son, and Holy Ghost (or “Holy Spirit”)” mentioned together; any time you hear the name of Mary; and, during Mass, when the name of the Saint in whose honor the Mass is being celebrated even though it is in the GIRM

“The General Instruction also draws attention to the bowing of the head at certain times during the Mass. “An inclination of the head should be made when the three Divine Persons are named, at the name of Jesus, of the Blessed Virgin Mary and of the Saint in whose honor the Mass is celebrated” (GIRM 275).”

So I don’t think they are trying to be “more pious” than you, but they have probably been taught this.

Less often seen is the profound bow which is done at the Asperges at Mass when the priest sprinkles the congregation with Holy water or at a TLM when the Altar Boy incenses the congregation during Mass -

The custom of bowing the head at the mention of His Name was formally written into law at the Second Council of Lyons, A.D. 1274, convened by Pope Gregory X: “Those who assemble in church should extol with an act of special reverence that Name which is above every Name, than which no other under Heaven has been given to people, in which believers must be saved, the Name, that is, of Jesus Christ, Who will save His people from their sins. Each should fulfil in himself that which is written for all, that at the Name of Jesus every knee should bow; whenever that glorious Name is recalled, especially during the sacred Mysteries of the Mass, everyone should bow the knees of his heart, which he can do even by a bow of his head.”
 
Oh, come now…I’ve not seen so much energy wasted on something so trivial! Frankly, I do not care whether hands are held or not during the Our Father and have no problem with it either way. There are so many more important things about the Mass than THIS!
 
As someone new coming into the Catholic church this year, I have found the holding of hands a beautiful bonding experience with my soon-to-be brothers and sisters. I feel a oness that I have missed in my 36 years as a protestant…I’m starting to think (by watching and hearing) that if you’re born Catholic…maybe some tend to be too picky or jaded about certain things…instead apprecate the beauty that this small gesture should mean to you on a personal level, rather than judging it based on how it is performed by others, however clumsily.
 
To be clear - I am not sure many object to this being done between immediate family members, husband, wife and Children.

But many seem to think you should hold hands with every stranger and form some circle stretching across aisles and all around the Church and then in some even the priests (which are not to do this but are to use a prescribed position of the hands during prayer) join hands with the altar servers too.

Welcome to the church by the way. Yes it can be a “nice feeling” but it still may not be the appropriate time or place to do it.
 
When I started reading this thread, a couple of days ago, I thought I might be able to add something worthwhile or new. Well, it’s just about all been said. But after reading the whole thing (quite an undertaking) I guess I should reward myself by saying something. I am an ex-protestant pastor and just came home to the R. Catholic church this past Easter (praise God, I’m home and finally found something worth fighting for, something worth laying down my life for, the pearl of great price, Christ’s body, His Church). Okay, I’m sorry, I just like to hear myself talk about this journey. Anyway, It’s funny to me when Catholics call something Protestant and I’ve never experienced it as Protestant, I.e., hand-holding. I think the handholding, kumbyya stuff has slipped in culturally apart from Protestant movements. My wife and I find our Catholic experience to be incredibly retro, like many people are stuck in the 60s. Our first RCIA class we drew pictures of our images of God. We were all given colored markers and got to share our pictures with everyone. Everyone’s picture of God was valid. For the most part, that was the extent of the substance of the teaching in RCIA. Imagine my wife and I having studied the teachings of the Church for 12 years and finally believing, and signing off, then leaving my career and livelihood to meet such nonsense. Imagine being told that the Church doesn’t have much teaching about God the Father. Really?! Imagine being told the Church believes things it doesn’t and doesn’t believe things it does. I could go on and on about the garbage we were fed and the lies we were told. It was all reported to the proper authorities and action was taken, so no worries. I’m fortunate to have a good bishop.

Anyway, I’m not sure where I’m going here. Regroup! I do not hold hands during the Our Father. I find myself so enraptured by the Mass that I’m already closing my eyes and in a prayer posture before I even have a chance to notice if anyone is reaching out for my hand. I find myself submitting my life and heart during this moment in the Mass and primarily focused toward the Lord and preparing myself for the sacrifice I’m about to receive and the offering of myself I’m about to do. I’m not very focused on my neighbor at this point though I know they are there and they are together with me participating. I find myself reaching out with a joy filled handshake during the “peace.” I find it ironic that more people don’t stay and talk and discuss how amazed they are at what we just went through together after the Mass instead of running off. That’s where the unity would show up, in my opinion.

One last thought, I wouldn’t assume that because people are vigorously debating their positions and at times even being sarcastic that they are prideful. I appreciate the vigorous debate and can even laugh at the sarcasm. It’s sometimes hard to know the heart through a disembodied medium like email. I stood up against my RCIA team who was advocating for female priests, birth control, and telling us that what happens in the Mass isn’t that important and that we really don’t need to know what the Church believes to become Catholic. I gently but firmly defended the teachings of the Church and was labeled a prideful troublemaker who wanted a PhD level RCIA. How funny! I just wanted them to attempt to give us the teachings of the church at whatever level they were able and not undermine them. It has nothing to do with pride. My gosh, we all struggle with pride. It has everything to do with truth. Either the Teachings of the Magisterium are true or they are not. If they are not then we should all be Protestant, and if they are true then truth demands our assent and submission.

Here’s hoping that many Catholics learn the joys of not being Protestant.
 
Welcome Home!!!
Have you and your wife published your conversion story anywhere?
I, for one, would love to read it!
 
EWD,

Thank you for defending the Catholic Faith and please keep being diligent. Its hard, I know but we need to keep going for the sake of our souls…and theres.
 
Panis - off topic but I tried to reply to your two private messages but it says your mailbox exceeds 50 messages and you need to delete some - oops.
 
Panis Angelicas:
Welcome Home!!!
Have you and your wife published your conversion story anywhere?
I, for one, would love to read it!
Click to expand...
No; thanks for the encouragment and the welcome though. My wife has submitted a couple of cool articles for our Catholic newspaper here. One of them was on the RCIA process and it was just choice. We feel so busy trying to help priests, deacons and the “faithful” learn what it means to be Catholic that we haven’t had much time for writing our story. No one has asked for it either. I know this sounds prideful. But it’s sadly true.
 
I gently but firmly defended the teachings of the Church and was labeled a prideful troublemaker who wanted a PhD level RCIA. How funny! I just wanted them to attempt to give us the teachings of the church at whatever level they were able and not undermine them
Click to expand...
.

It was probably they who were being prideful. I have had similar experiences when on an RCIA team led by a woman with her degre in theology. But often she would give misinformation and I was not the least bit reluctant to correct her, usually in private but sometimes it required NOW. I too was labeled a troublemaker.

Considering we have 2000 years of history and developing doctrine to cover, the RCIA does keep it pretty basic I guess. That may be where you will find your Catholic stewardship in the future.

Which Diocese are you in in Colorado.

I think you should write your “coming home” story even if not asked by the parish you are in.
 
EWD65 ~ Well, you really should. Your brief post was inspiring! There are many conversion stories posted on The Coming Home Network chnetwork.org/

Click on conversion stories! There are many. Maybe one day you and your wife will join Scott Hahn and others who have posted their stories there. They are inspiring.

Deogratias ~ Have I mentioned to you that I am a computer dummy? oops.
 
I agree with you Veronica…whoever started this silly thing anyway?!! I don’t do it…bad enuff to pass those germs with the common cup! (Guess the winos started that one too…
Wouldn’t it be great to get back to the real meaning of the Mass?!
 
This is my third attempt to post on this subject. I keep getting kicked off.

Anyway, what I wanted to say is that the parish I attend is in the Diocese of Los Angeles County. About two years ago, Cardinal Roger Mahoney gave directives that the faithful no longer should hold hands at the Lord’s Prayer but, instead, raise their arms slightly and pray with palms up. It is called the Orans posture.

Many articles about praying while holding hands and the Orans posture can be found on many websites.

For what I understand is that neither belong in the Mass. I have observed that there are still parishes in this diocese where the faithful continue to hold hands and in our parish some still hold hands during this part of the Mass.

Theodora
 
Well - Mahoney does do his own thing, doesn’t he.

Did you see the thread called “So You Think Your Parish Has Liturgical Abuses?”
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top