Holding hands at the Our Father

[Remington]

Thankfully, you’re not the arbiter of what “proper behavior” is as Mass either, nor are you my judge. So I suppose you can nix those outlandish comments regarding bigotry and the like you made earlier. You know, since you’re not the arbiter of proper behavior or any kind of judge. If not, then you’re just a hypocrite and you’re on my ignore list.

You don’t get it, do you? You said:

…I also agree with the poster that says that all too often, we appear to be at a Protestant service where clapping, shouting, etc make it appear as though we’re huddled around a campfire rather than before the altar of the Lord…

That IS terribly bigoted and loaded with ignorance. You’re inferring that all Protestantism is uniform and filled with “clapping, shouting, etc.” How utterly offensive and bigoted.

 

[nice2000]

What ever happened to holding our hands in prayer form ? I recently realized (couple of years ago) that mass is one full hour of prayer(s). One day I decided to listen really hard and realized that we are saying one prayer after another. In reality, aren’t we supposed to hold our hands together (in prayer format) for each prayer that is being said.

I learned by watching a devout elderly parishener, never knew her name, I could see that she was very humble. She always held her hands together while standing during mass, except for the “sign of peace” of course.

 

[adrift]

First I suggest you find an accurate definition of what a liturgical “abuse” is. Then you need provide back-up supporting your claim. It’s not that difficult with an actual liturgical abuse.

Do you have an “accurate definition” . Abuse is introduced when it is not proscribed by the rubrics. It is YOUR claim that it is Not an abuse. You need to provide evidence that it is not.
Fr. Vincent Serpa refers to it as an abuse that is minor.

This link is a good one on the subject.

Simply put. The action of holding hands by the community is not in the rubrics. As a community action, as opposed to individuals such as family, it is an abuse. Especially when the priest holds hands with the altar boys. I agree with Fr. that it is minor.

 

[adrift]

It’s all more new-age feel-good garbage. (thanks again, hippie generation)

What I don’t get is why the people who defend this pointless novelty never reverse their own question on themselves… It’s always “you must convince me you have a good reason for being AGAINST it!” even though it was never a part of the Mass in the first place. The burden is actually on them to sufficiently explain why they treat it as being so important.

You are so right. My understanding of how it was introduced in Mass is that it came form the AA meetings.

 

[Joan_M]

I find it preposterous that people are “forced” to hold hands during the Lord’s Prayer. I think the legend of forced hand holding exists largely so people can continue to discuss the “problem” of hand holding.

You suggest I “lack experience” simply because I don’t accept the legend of forced hand holding and that’s simply not true.

That said in the extremely rare instance where someone is actually “forced” to hold hands, simply employ one of the many, many solutions people have offered here and elsewhere and be done with the issue once and for all.

One thing some people need to face is that it’s not OK to get upset about other peoples’ actions in situations like this. ** In essence it’s none of your business** --** it’s not up to you to control them**. It’s their business and that of your pastor. ** If you feel frustration, if you feel anger then it’s on you and it’s you that needs to seek a solution within what you can control – namely yoursel**f.

Remington, your continued refusal to believe that some people have, indeed, felt forced to hold hands at the Our Father is insulting. It is not at all that rare, and is NOT a “legend”.

In my narrative of what happened, I was looking towards the altar, I was holding my hands clasped in front of me, I was not looking at the person to my side. The person who was determined that I would hold her hand ignored all of that. Unless I was prepared to make a scene at Mass, which I am not, what was I to do?

Actually, it is my business when someone intrudes on my prayer essentially forcing me to do something that is NOT a part of the Mass and has NOT been permitted by the Church.

**I agree, it is not up to me to “control” the other person. However, they apparently cannot control themselves and are determined to control me. So, what would you do? Pretend this happened to you and the person simply will not leave you alone. Just what would you do?

****If the person was a child, or someone who appeared to be mentally unbalanced, or very old, anger would not come into it. But, in my experience, it is not such a person that does this. Of course when I make all the usual signs that I do not wish to hold their hand and they persist I will feel frustrated and, indeed, justifiably angry. This is not “on me”, as you said. That is rubbish.

**Right now, you are the one who is pressuring many of us here, refusing to believe that any of us have experienced this, and actually accusing us of being liars. It is more than time you stopped this unacceptable behavior and respect us.

 

[exoflare]

I feel badly for those so obsessed with things like hand-holding. People in this very thread have admitted how it upsets them and that’s really their problem. Even if the Church did not allow the practice it’s none of them business what other people do. It’s sad they lack the grace and the state of mind to simply ignore those they find offensive. Better yet, come to peace with the fact that these people aren’t doing anything dastardly or even prohibited.

BUT you say they grab my hand(s)! While I think that’s largely a bunch of balderdash (largely an excuse to be upset about hand holding at the Mass in the first place), people have offered a million and one ways to avoid having to hold hands. Pick your favorite and use it already and free yourself of this burden. If you continue to try and control others in this sorta setting and you’re going to spend your life frustrated and ultimately very bitter.

I gotta say, I see those tense and clearly angry people at Mass who are upset with the things other people do. Get over it already and focus on God. If it’s an ACTUAL abuse then take action otherwise pray for the grace to free yourself from these niggling irritants.

NB: Every time I see Jay Leno at a car show he has his left hand shoved in his pants pocket while carrying a big hubcap with the other hand. I finally had the nerve to ask him about it once. He said he does it because he doesn’t always want to feel obliged to shake a thousand or two hands every time he goes to a show to check out cars. Maybe some of you can hold your missalette in one hand and a something else in the other?

Yeah, some people do make too big a deal out of it and it’s not that I disagree with them on how stupid the whole thing is, but that there are a lot more important issues out there to focus on and it’s just not worth getting worked up over a relatively minor detail like this one.

If I don’t want to hold hands I just look down and close my eyes or something, and people have always gotten the hint. I haven’t been “poked” or anything yet for it so far, but even if it happens someday oh well.

 

[malphono]

Yeah, some people do make too big a deal out of it and it’s not that I disagree with them on how stupid the whole thing is, but that there are a lot more important issues out there to focus on and it’s just not worth getting worked up over a relatively minor detail like this one.

If I don’t want to hold hands I just look down and close my eyes or something, and people have always gotten the hint. I haven’t been “poked” or anything yet for it so far, but even if it happens someday oh well.

No question that there are more important issues but, while it may be considered “minor” it’s an abuse nonetheless.

I think the reason (well, at least one main reason) why this particular one bugs a lot of people is that it is highly intrusive. It’s something that violates people’s personal space, and not everyone wishes to participate in such an absurdly touchy-feely demonstration, of whatever it is that this practice is supposed to demonstrate. On what basis, other than as a post-conciliar innovation, does the practice even exist? As has been pointed out by several posters, hand-holding is not part of the rubrics, nor is it in the IGMR, (not even as one of the many “options” in the OF), nor is it an “indult” (like CITH, e.g.). If it’s not one of those, it plainly has no justification.

 

[hazcompat]

Tertullian suggested forgoing the sign of peace as an act of penance(individual/communal). One mass the priest had us do that very thing. I am more comfortable with a penitant posture than with holding hands. It does not bother me(anymore) if others do.

Let no man disturb your peace

 

[CatholicGuy22]

I have no problem with either way. I would perfer not to hold hands but if someone extends their hand at me, i would not ignore them. I really think its silly to get all worked up on this issue.

 

[Remington]

Do you have an “accurate definition” . Abuse is introduced when it is not proscribed by the rubrics. It is YOUR claim that it is Not an abuse. You need to provide evidence that it is not.
Fr. Vincent Serpa refers to it as an abuse that is minor.

This link is a good one on the subject.

Simply put. The action of holding hands by the community is not in the rubrics. As a community action, as opposed to individuals such as family, it is an abuse. Especially when the priest holds hands with the altar boys. I agree with Fr. that it is minor.

No.

First do you mean “prescribed?” If it’s specifically “proscribed” it means that it is prohibited.

That aside there is a HUGE difference between a liturgical irregularity and an actual abuse (there are different grades) as defined by Redemptionis Sacramentum. I’ll let you read and determine what constitutes an abuse. To suggest that holding hands during the Lord’s Prayer is an “abuse” is absurd. To onus is on you to provide evidence (good luck) that it is. The notion that whatever is not formally defined in the rubrics is an abuse is ludicrous.

But let’s use the hand-holding for a moment. If people do it spontaneously during the Lord’s Prayer it’s neither an irregularity nor an abuse. Now let’s say (and we have not yet talked about this) the priestly celebrant actually directed the faithful to hold hands. That wouldn’t be an abuse either but it certainly would be irregular.

 

[Remington]

I have no problem with either way. I would perfer not to hold hands but if someone extends their hand at me, i would not ignore them. I really think its silly to get all worked up on this issue.

I agree. It can also be counter productive.

 

[Remington]

What ever happened to holding our hands in prayer form ? I recently realized (couple of years ago) that mass is one full hour of prayer(s). One day I decided to listen really hard and realized that we are saying one prayer after another. In reality, aren’t we supposed to hold our hands together (in prayer format) for each prayer that is being said.

I learned by watching a devout elderly parishener, never knew her name, I could see that she was very humble. She always held her hands together while standing during mass, except for the “sign of peace” of course.

I hold my hands in the 5on5 throughout the Mass when I serve, but no, it’s certainly not required.

 

[frenchbeatle]

I posted on another thread about this, that once I was forced to hold hands. I had my arms crossed in front of me, facing forward and a woman next to me grabbed my arm and made me hold hands with her. It was a choice between making a scene or just giving in, and it just wasn’t worth making a scene in the middle of Mass. I like the idea of holding my hands like this: , so I’ll try that in the future, and hopefully I won’t be forced again.

And to Remington who is calling all claims of being forced to hold hands “preposterous”, I guess that means you’re saying we’re making up stories or calling us untruthful.

 

[Phemie]

And to Remington who is calling all claims of being forced to hold hands “preposterous”, I guess that means you’re saying we’re making up stories or calling us untruthful.

Don’t you just love how people know better than you what your personal experience has been?

I’m lucky, holding hands for the Lord’s Prayer is not known in our parish. I’m not someone who could refuse if someone held their hand out to me. I’d be resentful but wouldn’t be able to be rude and say no. No spine? Perhaps. But I wouldn’t want the person to feel as rejected as I would feel if the same thing happened to me.

 

[Remington]

I am not attempting to support that it should be banned, since I don’t know if it should be banned. I *am *somewhat interested in being sure everyone out in the pews knows about what they are and are not required to do during mass. I suspect not everyone does, as I stated in my first post on the thread. Though in my parish I think most have caught on in the last seven or ten years that they are not required to take or offer hands.

I would agree that some (maybe even many) probably don’t know if hand holding is REQUIRED or not and that could cause some problems. No one has ever really questioned that here yet – thanks for mentioning it. I could indeed see where some would prefer not to hold hands yet they feel it’s a requirement so they acquiesce to their neighbor(s) wishes. It’s possible they might even initiate it, thinking it’s a requirement.

I see no intrinsic connection between having been physically forced to hold a hand and whether or not hand holding is wrong, so to that extent I understand your concern. But not all of us who have felt forced are using that to say it should be banned. So, perhaps you do not question veracity in my case.

Just to be clear, I have felt forced socially. I wouldn’t say physically.

On the other hand I think it’s absurd for people to continually suggest they are physically forced to hold hands. I think in most cases that’s an out and out fabrication – a means to create a stage so they can berate something they have been conditioned to hate. Some of the canned responses (especially the “too Protestant” one) of why they so dislike holding hands get mighty old.

I think it’s also absurd to suggest that holding hands at that point in the Mass is a liturgical “abuse.”

 

[Thoma25]

You don’t get it, do you? You said:

That IS terribly bigoted and loaded with ignorance. You’re inferring that all Protestantism is uniform and filled with “clapping, shouting, etc.” How utterly offensive and bigoted.

About as “utterly offensive and bigoted” as you telling others what their personal experiences have been during Mass, and insinuating that they are in fact liars for truthfully relating what you’d rather not accept?

Of course, there are more offensive issues of Protestantism than just widespread liturgical cookiness being imported into Catholicism. You know, the rampant heresies, half-truths, and anti-Catholicism. That makes many of their more charismatic hand-holding, tongue-speaking, arm flailing services pale in comparison!

I think it’s very telling that you’re defending the dignity of a heretical sect (Protestantism) while vehemently attacking and reviling faithful Catholics whose experiences and opinions are different than yours. Take it for what you will, but I’m not going to waste any more of my time replying to you and fueling your agenda.

 

[Remington]

…Of course, there are more offensive issues of Protestantism than just widespread liturgical cookiness being imported into Catholicism. You know, the rampant heresies, half-truths, and anti-Catholicism. That makes many of their more charismatic hand-holding, tongue-speaking, arm flailing services pale in comparison!

Do you have any idea how your comments sound to others? Protestantism is not a huge monolithic institution like the Catholic Church. You can’t make sweeping comments like you have – particularly when some of the things you are getting upset about are allowed and even welcomed in the Catholic Church such as the Charismatic Renewal. In sum, your “Protestant comments” are bigoted

I think it’s very telling that you’re defending the dignity of a heretical sect (Protestantism) while vehemently attacking and reviling faithful Catholics whose experiences and opinions are different than yours. Take it for what you will, but I’m not going to waste any more of my time replying to you and fueling your agenda.

You really aren’t getting are you? Protestantism is not a “sect.” It could be described as thousands of sects (by those who favor inflammatory language) but it’s certainly not a sect.

I have not been “vehemently attacking and reviling faithful Catholics.” That is a lie.

You finish with a classic hit-and-run statement. Nevertheless I’m not going to back off. People continue to spew outright hatred about things like hand holding. All it does is embitter them. In many cases it probably ends up alienating (and hardening) the “hand holders” they come in contact with at Mass. They discount suggestions of simply ignoring the hand holders because by golly they are being FORCED to hold hands and the drama continues…

 

[Acolythus_sum]

Do you have any idea how your comments sound to others? Protestantism is not a huge monolithic institution like the Catholic Church. You can’t make sweeping comments like you have – particularly when some of the things you are getting upset about are allowed and even welcomed in the Catholic Church such as the Charismatic Renewal. In sum, your “Protestant comments” are bigoted

You really aren’t getting are you? Protestantism is not a “sect.” It could be described as thousands of sects (by those who favor inflammatory language) but it’s certainly not a sect.

I have not been “vehemently attacking and reviling faithful Catholics.” That is a lie.

You finish with a classic hit-and-run statement. Nevertheless I’m not going to back off. People continue to spew outright hatred about things like hand holding. All it does is embitter them. In many cases it probably ends up alienating (and hardening) the “hand holders” they come in contact with at Mass. They discount suggestions of simply ignoring the hand holders because by golly they are being FORCED to hold hands and the drama continues…

Why. Do. You. Not. Listen??? People HAVE been forced to hold hands. I have; if not physically (I still have, and I am stronger than most people), psychologically (as many have said, we don’t want to make a scene during the Most Holy Sacrifice of the Mass); or even by assuming “this is what we do, therefore it’s required”, and not even having a choice. I have even been serving at Holy Mass when the priest called all the servers around the altar to hold hands during the Pater Noster!!!

So we spew hatred, but you do not. Reread this topic from a neutral perspective and see whose comments have been most inflammatory–or better yet, have someone else (someone neutral) do it.

And Protestantism is a heresy, plain and simple.

 

[CalifCatholic]

What are your feelings on this?

Feelings are irellevant. The congregation holding hands during the Lord’s Prayer is a violation of the Liturgical Norms. No priest or lay person has the right to alter the Liturgical Norms

Karl Keating, the owner of Catholic Answers, stated in his E-Letter of April 11, 2006 :

ORIGINS OF HAND-HOLDING

The current issue of the “Adoremus Bulletin” says this in response to a query from a priest in the Bronx:

“No gesture for the people during the Lord’s Prayer is mentioned in the official documents. The late liturgist Fr. Robert Hovda promoted holding hands during this prayer, a practice he said originated in Alcoholics Anonymous. Some ‘charismatic’ groups took up the practice.”

My long-time sense had been that hand-holding at the Our Father was an intrusion from charismaticism, but I had not been aware of the possible connection with AA. If this is the real origin of the practice, it makes it doubly odd: first, because hand-holding intrudes a false air of chumminess into the Mass (and undercuts the immediately-following sign of peace), and second, because modifications to liturgical rites ought to arise organically and not be borrowed from secular self-help groups.

Periodically, on “Catholic Answers Live” I am asked about hand-holding during Mass and explain that it is contrary to the rubrics. Usually I get follow-up e-mails from people who say, “But it’s my favorite part of the Mass” or “We hold hands as a family, and it makes us feel closer.”

About the latter I think, “It’s good to feel close as a family, but you can hold hands at home or at the mall. The Mass has a formal structure that should be respected. That means you forgo certain things that you might do on the outside.”

About the former comment I think, “If this is the high point of the Mass for you, you need to take Remedial Mass 101. The Mass is not a social event. It is the re-presentation of the sacrifice of Calvary, and it is the loftiest form of prayer. It should be attended with appropriate solemnity.”

 

[Remington]

Feelings are irellevant. The congregation holding hands during the Lord’s Prayer is a violation of the Liturgical Norms. No priest or lay person has the right to alter the Liturgical Norms.

In a word, no it’s not. It’s not a violation of everything. Now some liturgists and theologians have speculated that it impinges on the Mass but that’s simply their opinion. It is not something that needs to be followed.