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RWMorris
Guest
Can’t stand holding hands during “Our Father” and won’t do it. Thank goodness this innovation has never made it to our cathedral.
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whatevergirl
Guest
I will have to spend some time leafing through this thread…as this has not been of importance to me, up until recently. I never really experienced a congregation doing this, but now after moving to Florida…we went to our first mass at a local Catholic parish whereby the whole parish seems to hold hands.:ehh: Not sure…I thought it was neat…my kids thought is was weird…my husband liked it.
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otjm
Guest
That is all very nice except for one issue: how you hold your hands is not in the rubrics. As Archbishop Chaput has pointed out, it is not regulated and as such, individuals are free to choose either to hold hands or to not hold hands, and both should be respected in their choices.
There is an attitude and thought, it would appear, among some that every last mostion and posture in the Mass is regulated. As important a person in the matter, Cardinal Arinze, has pointed out, it is not the intention of the Church to regulate posture that tightly (he was responding to the issue of posture upon return from Communion). So appeals to St. Therese are very nice, but she wasn’t a Cardinal in charge of the dicastery whioch makes these decisions. Arinze is.
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katy
Guest
Holding hands to me is a spontaneous gesture. I dislike having it forced on me by the fact that I can either do it or be perceived as hostile or cold. These are 2 bad choices as far as I am concerned, but feel I am forced to submit to it out of a desire not to offend. But I still hate it. I’d much rather people actually talk to me and take an interest in others outside mass. This is where a stranger can usually stand invisibly while all those "community minded " people who were grabbing or scowling at you during mass ignore everyone but their own little group. Unless they are racing to get out of the parking lot.
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pprimeau1976
Guest
At my Church, they hold hands and I have no problem with it when I am with my family. On the rare occasion where I go to church alone, if I fold my hands, bow my head, and close my eyes, no one forces anything on me and I don’t notice it.
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tomch
Guest
I can’t believe I read through this whole thread! Wow… there sure are a lot of strong opinions about hand-holding, aren’t there?
Isn’t prayer the important thing? I just can’t imagine Jesus telling his disciples… “NO, NO!! - you’re NOT supposed to hold hands when you pray this prayer!” I don’t think He really cared what they did with their hands as long as they didn’t distract someone else from praying. Prayer is the important thing.
I don’t mean to offend, but my impression is that all this debate about hand positions is insignificant and hits me as being legalistic and juvenile.
I’m a new Catholic, and maybe someone will convince me that I’m wrong. I’m certainly open to that. So far nothing posted really has me convinced that my hand position is of any consequence at all.
Isn’t prayer the important thing? I just can’t imagine Jesus telling his disciples… “NO, NO!! - you’re NOT supposed to hold hands when you pray this prayer!” I don’t think He really cared what they did with their hands as long as they didn’t distract someone else from praying. Prayer is the important thing.
I don’t mean to offend, but my impression is that all this debate about hand positions is insignificant and hits me as being legalistic and juvenile.
I’m a new Catholic, and maybe someone will convince me that I’m wrong. I’m certainly open to that. So far nothing posted really has me convinced that my hand position is of any consequence at all.
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byers
Guest
hello tomch…it may seem legalistic and juvenile to one who doesn’t realize that the real argument is not whether we hold hands or not, but rather whether we are being** obedient**. That is an very important consideration for Catholics as we should always strive for obedience to the Church.
The rubrics never specified that this was not to be done and in the heady days of the 60’s and 70’s some people just started doing it (holding hands), perhaps trying to express unity and not understanding that the unity is not physical but spiritual…in the unity of the Holy Spirit. Another thing people started doing on their own was praying in the orans position used by the priest. This basically got started with the charismatic movement.
Nothing was done about this and more and more people started doing it. Because nothing was done about this in the beginning it got out of hand. It appears that most bishops do not wish to offend those who hold hands or pray in the orans position and basically turn a blind eye to the whole matter hoping the problem will fade away.
Unfortunately by trying not to offend those who are following the lay introduced postures, they are offending those who are uncomfortable with this.
However previous to that time period it was unheard of for the laity to introduce new things into the liturgy. It would have been considered arrogant. So now the laity are left with the conundrum of being forced to participate in behaviors that they are uncomfortable with and that are not specified in the rubrics.
And others in the laity seem ‘nothing wrong with it’…some just liking it, some not even knowing where it came from or how it got started.
No, I’m sure Jesus is not concerned about how you hold your hands, but he does wish you to be obedient to the Church he founded. And that is what many people are trying to do and finding most of the leadership refusing to address the issue.
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The rubrics never specified that this was not to be done and in the heady days of the 60’s and 70’s some people just started doing it (holding hands), perhaps trying to express unity and not understanding that the unity is not physical but spiritual…in the unity of the Holy Spirit. Another thing people started doing on their own was praying in the orans position used by the priest. This basically got started with the charismatic movement.
Nothing was done about this and more and more people started doing it. Because nothing was done about this in the beginning it got out of hand. It appears that most bishops do not wish to offend those who hold hands or pray in the orans position and basically turn a blind eye to the whole matter hoping the problem will fade away.
Unfortunately by trying not to offend those who are following the lay introduced postures, they are offending those who are uncomfortable with this.
However previous to that time period it was unheard of for the laity to introduce new things into the liturgy. It would have been considered arrogant. So now the laity are left with the conundrum of being forced to participate in behaviors that they are uncomfortable with and that are not specified in the rubrics.
And others in the laity seem ‘nothing wrong with it’…some just liking it, some not even knowing where it came from or how it got started.
No, I’m sure Jesus is not concerned about how you hold your hands, but he does wish you to be obedient to the Church he founded. And that is what many people are trying to do and finding most of the leadership refusing to address the issue.
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tomch
Guest
If the leadership were to enforce a rule about hand positions, I’d certainly comply out of obedience. But I wonder if the reason they are not giving an official position (as a whole) is that this seems to be a non-issue, and they don’t want to get “hyper-involved” in things of little to no importance.
Seems like the folks who are getting so worked up about this should close their eyes when they pray so that they don’t see what other people’s hands are doing! What matters is what to pray from the heart. Not from the hands.
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junvir
Guest
Holding hands during the Our Father is such a good gesture of being together for one faith… but, the BIG BUT is… this is not really good for health reasons… just imagine if you have colds or some kind of illness that is transferable… you are spreading that illness to your fellow faithfuls… and even the dipping of fingers in the holy water at the entrance of the church is also not a good practice… how many diseases could be transferred to the other faithfuls???.
The gesture itself is good, but for practical and health reasons, I think we catholics should stop this practice.
The gesture itself is good, but for practical and health reasons, I think we catholics should stop this practice.
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THurifer2
Guest
I do ask what is the purpose of holding hands during the prayer?
What is the purpose of the kiss of peace?
The differnce is the kiss of peace practice came from the Authority of the church and the holding hands gesture came from the laity.
My question is this…? Does the laity have the right to introduce Gestures into the liturgy? The answers is NO.
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whatevergirl
Guest
That’s good insight…I agree. Maybe it’s just not significant…it’s just something we haven’t grown up with, so it seems out of place for some of us. Thanks for your post…
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katy
Guest
I would not get worked up if the folks around me didn’t. My home parish has people who hold hands and those who don’t. Fine with me. BUT I sometimes visit places where one is glared at or made to feel out of place if they are not hand holders. I think this is most uncharitable and uncalled for. I believe pastors should make it clear that this is strictly an option among like minded people if they feel so inclined.
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RosalieM
Guest
I’ve been back with the Church for almost a year now and the orans position and holding hands were news to me when I got back. However, since that was being done, I conformed to it. After reading some of this thread, I just folded my hands during the Our Father yesterday and had my eyes closed. It was a deeper experience for me. I decided I will do it that way except when I am singing in the choir and we’re up in front of everyone. The rest of the choir will be doing the orans and if I don’t, I’ll look like some kind of renegade. I’m compromising with the orans, but I’ll still have my eyes closed.
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harmon3110
Guest
I hate holding hands at Mass. And, I don’t.
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Beachcomber
Guest
Me, too. It’s been a long time since I was an active Catholic, and I’m just beginning to think about making my way back; but the hand-holding (and sign of peace) really put me off. The parish I attended did hold hands and I made sure I wasn’t near enough anyone to be forced into it. If that wasn’t an option, I’d just glare or ignore people. I don’t care what they think.
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az_4_faith
Guest
My family and I stopped holdings hands at the Our Father about five years ago.
I’ve never encountered a problem with other parishioners because I anticipate the moment by folding my hands in front of me and closing my eyes. I figure, what I can’t see won’t be a problem. No one has ever forcibly grabbed my hand and I always try to have a peaceful look on my face. I’d never glare or stare at somebody because of it. Even at the most liberal parishes that we’ve been to, this method has worked and no one has been upset by us, at least as far as we can tell.
I’ve never encountered a problem with other parishioners because I anticipate the moment by folding my hands in front of me and closing my eyes. I figure, what I can’t see won’t be a problem. No one has ever forcibly grabbed my hand and I always try to have a peaceful look on my face. I’d never glare or stare at somebody because of it. Even at the most liberal parishes that we’ve been to, this method has worked and no one has been upset by us, at least as far as we can tell.
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JimR-OCDS
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katy
Guest
I think the quietly praying with folded hands and closed eyes works best in that situation. Even better is to drive if you have to to find a parish where this isn’t an issue so you don’t have to think about it. I wish I had done that instead of going to a local non-handholding Protestant church for a long time. I drive a bit now, but I don’t have the feeling of not belonging because I’m just not the touchy feely sort. The people are friendly, though, so it’s the best of all worlds. Friendly people, hand holding strictly optional.
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mark_a
Guest
I normally don’t hold hands, even with the family, but I’m careful not to offend if another parishoner wants to.
On the other hand, I’ve seen someone refuse a handshake at the “sign of peace”. She just kinda glares at you with her arms crossed.
On the other hand, I’ve seen someone refuse a handshake at the “sign of peace”. She just kinda glares at you with her arms crossed.
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otjm
Guest
That may be part of it, but only part. There are a goodly number of people who are convinced, never mind the facts, that holding hands is disobedient, and will not listen at all to the other side of the issue.There are also some people who want to return to the 1950’s “pray, pay and obey” era, where they know they were going to get to heaven if they just did not break the rules. The challenge of actually having to make decisions, and of being responsible for their own moral lives has never sat well with them. They want a world of black and white, never mind that the world is not black and white.
And some people understand that holding hands is not unity, but a sign of unity.
Out of hand is a value judgement; others would say that it became widely accepted.
Or they realize that it is a relatively minor issue and only an issue with a minority of people, and feel it is acceptable. Again, you are making value judgements. Rome itself has said that it does not intend to regulate posture strictly (Cardinal Arinze’s answer to posture after receiving Communion - kneeling, standing or sitting - where a posture was or appeared to be specified - standing; he said they could kneel or sit also).
And some of those who do not hold hands offend those who do; some refuse with what appear to be expressions of judgementalism and a pietistic “I’m holier than thou” look. NOTE: I said some.
Some of the laity feel this way. It appears that the larger majority don’t. Further, there may well be instances where someone wanting to hold hands makes a scene about it - a very unchartible act. However, I suspect that the simple fact that so many people hold hands is what makes others who wish not to, feel that they are “being forced”, as they stand out as a disticnt minority.
Many people? I would say some people act as if the only way they can be “obedient” is to have a specific rule. They don’t know how to act if someone doesn’t tell them. But the bigger group who protests simply wants the Church to make a rule that it stop; they are convinced that it is an abuse, is something horrible, that it greatly disturbs their prayerlife and equanimity, and they are angry that the Church won’t vindicate their wishes and opinions. The Church just isn’t holy enough for them.
Christ also wants us to act like adults, to love one another, and to realize that worship is not the following of a series of rules and correct posture, but something much deeper.
Christ told us that the moral life is much deeper than just following rules. He didn’t say that the rules have no meaning. But he most certainly said that there are significant rules (the 10
Commandments) and there are rules that are much less significant, and for good reason can be disobeyed (He and the disciples were shucking and eating grain on the Sabbath, a specific rule of not working in Jewish rules - and He the perfect Jew). And He told the young man who asked what he must do to gain heaven - follow the 10 Commanments; and what more? Come, follow Me.
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