Holding hands during Pater Noster — Why?

[Dan_Defender]

To me, no problem holding hands during the Our Father. But some people don’t want to, I respect that. As the Bible tells us, back in Apostolic times people greeted each other with a holy kiss at Mass. Imagine that.

 

[otjm]

This priest says it is wrong to hold hands during the Our Father.

Actually, I don’t believe he ever said it was wrong. He definitely said he doesn’t like it.

He conflates several issues: 1) the GIRM tells the congregation to stand or kneel. 2) he mentions the orans posture - and is correct that is the position in the GIRM for the priest to take. 3) The deacon’s hands during the Our Father (a rule specific to a deacon).

I happen to personally like Father Ricardo and I know people other than him who do not like holding hands during the Our Father.

As I noted in a post above, Archbishop Chaput made a thorough analysis of the matter; and he was crystal clear that Rome has not spoken on the matter; and if the matter is to be decided, it is up to Rome. Roma non locuta est. So other than personal opinions - my Archbishop, Father Ricardo, or the number of laity who don’t like it need to let go and leave the issue alone. Father Ricardo is a great and gifted priest.

But he doesn’t write the rules in the GIRM, and Rome has seen fit for several iterations of the GIRM to not address the issue.

 

[otjm]

I hate to break it to you, but there is no black or red on the matter of hands during the Our Father.

 

[otjm]

I don’t know that this young lady has any more authority than the next person but she is sincere about her beliefs and I like the video

She has as much authority as anyone other than the proper Congregation in Rome, meaning she has a personal opinion. There is no rule and has not been one since holding hands started in the mid to late 1960’s.

 

[Mi_Rose]

Do the red means do what is printed in red.

 

[Fauken]

Do the red means do what is printed in red.

And where is the red that states that the laity may imitate the gestures and actions of the priest?

 

[melonhead]

And your authority comes from whom?

Instructions from my pastor and parochial vicar, who in turn received instructions from the bishop to instruct parishes that holding hands during the Pater Noster, holding one’s hands in the orans position, and walking up and down the aisle shaking everyone’s hand and flashing the “peace” sign during gesture of peace are verboten.

 

[maryjk]

Do the red means don’t make up stuff that isn’t there.

Which means that the congregation can do nothing. Not position their hands on any way. No praying hands. No bars at their side. No anything.

Instructions from my pastor and parochial vicar, who in turn received instructions from the bishop to instruct parishes that holding hands during the Pater Noster, holding one’s hands in the orans position, and walking up and down the aisle shaking everyone’s hand and flashing the “peace” sign during gesture of peace are verboten.

Which means for you and your parish, they prefer that you don’t hold hands. They do not speak for every parish.

In the document, Instruction On Certain Questions Regarding the Collaboration of the Non-Ordained Faithful in the Sacred Ministry of Priests , put out by the Vatican on August 15, 1997, we read,

"In eucharistic celebrations deacons and non-ordained members of the faithful may not pronounce prayers — e.g. especially the eucharistic prayer, with its concluding doxology — or any other parts of the liturgy reserved to the celebrant priest. Neither may deacons or non-ordained members of the faithful use gestures or actions which are proper to the same priest celebrant.

It says nothing about holding hands.

 

[melonhead]

Which means for you and your parish, they prefer that you don’t hold hands. They do not speak for every parish.

What the bishop says about responses by the laity as directed by GIRM only applies to my parish, not the rest in the diocese he governs? Interesting.

 

[maryjk]

What the bishop says about responses by the laity as directed by GIRM only applies to my parish, not the rest in the diocese he governs? Interesting.

Quote the GIRM. Where is says that the congregation isn’t allowed to hold hands.

FYI, you can’t because it does say that. Your Bishop is showing a preference. Which he is welcome to do. But he doesn’t speak for every one.

 

[melonhead]

Fair enough. However, it’s a practice that crept into practice in the aftermath of the 2d Vatican Councile (no, I’m not bashing V2, or trying to make this a pre-vs-post-V2 debate). Canon law states “The liturgical books approved by the competent authority are to be faithfully observed in the celebration of the sacraments; therefore, no one on personal authority may add, remove, or change anything in them.” If it’s not approved (or disapproved), and local priests and parishioners are introducing it, seems like a violation of canon law. And if the intent is unity, we’re already worshipping in unison, kneeling in unison, praying in unison, etc.

And you didn’t answer my question: do I have the leeway to not obey the bishop when he says to not do something that isn’t approved?

 

[tafan2]

The GIRM also does not say the majority of the people cannot sick their thumbs during the Eucharistic Prayer or they cannot all do a group hug during the Our father.
It cannot rule out every possible gesture. What is can do is specify major gestures and postures when it there is a reason for people to do so. Now, when 75% of a congregation is holding hands during the entire Our Father, that is a major gesture. If it was appropriate and desired by the Church, it would be in the GIRM.

The argument that it is not proscribed, so it’s ok, does not hold water. Everyone turning their back to the altar during the Agnus Dei is not proscribed, let’s do that?

 

[MagdalenaRita]

Actually, I don’t believe he ever said it was wrong. He definitely said he doesn’t like it.

Does he come right out and use the word “wrong”. No, but he is pretty clear it is not a posture we are to have and says rather we are to be following the posture of the deacon.

Also right up front he said it doesn’t belong in the liturgy. He states there is a purpose in the liturgy and it is not a time for individual expression. He also says at the Our Father the priest has his hands extended but everyone else technically should not. It is the posture for the priest and not for us.
Both holding hands and raising hands during the Our Father usually go together. Most people holding hands are holding them together in the orans position, so it is good he combined the two issues.

I happen to personally like Father Ricardo and I know people other than him who do not like holding hands during the Our Father.

I think this kind of hits on the nail on the head pretty close. Father Ricardo is not the only priest who has instructed the laity not to do this and apparently the situation has come to the point where Archbishop Chaput felt the need to make an analysis of the matter. I haven’t read his analysis of the situation so I can not comment on what he has said.

Though what I see is, despite the requests of many good priests, adult Catholics are saying until Rome puts it’s foot down and makes a clear statement telling us to stop, we will ignore the instructions of the priests and continue.

In other words, as someone else said, just because we are not told explicitly we can’t do something, doesn’t mean we can do something or should do something.

Father Ricardo, or the number of laity who don’t like it need to let go and leave the issue alone

and lets include many other priests who have asked the laity to stop. And with that, I quite disagree with your sentiments here and hope for quite the opposite, that more priests and laity do not leave the issue alone but continue to instruct the laity on proper postures at Mass.

I wonder in the first place, where did this practice (of the congregation praying the Pater Noster in the orans posture and hands held together) originate from?

From what I understand it started after Vatican II with the ecumenical movement and much protestantism crept in to the Catholic church. After Vatican II there came a whole “we are one in the Spirit” attitude. Catholic theology teaches we are one in the Church under the Bishop of Rome and united because of the Sacraments.

 

[SPONP4US]

Without going too much off topic, I don’t like the sign of peace moment at all. It is awkward, fake, forced and pointless. If someone grabbed my hand at the Our Father prayer I would certainly not allow them to. If they persisted, yes they would get a jolt in the ribs, via my elbow, without a second thought. They can also turn the other side and get one their too.

I join my hand in prayer at the Our Father and close my eyes. I reluctantly open them to shake hands but really I’d just rather stay kneeling at the great Amen until communion. No one has ever tried to join my hands with theirs, or hug me and anyone that does … will only try it once

 

[maryjk]

And you didn’t answer my question: do I have the leeway to not obey the bishop when he says to not do something that isn’t approved

Really?

I didn’t indicate any such thing. Yet you seem fixated on it.

As I’ve said, twice, your bishop is giving his opinion to his diocese. That doesn’t effect outside his diocese.

 

[pnewton]

Mi_Rose:

Do the red means do what is printed in red.

And where is the red that states that the laity may imitate the gestures and actions of the priest?

No, it just means do the red. You can add a period, if you would like. The negative of a statement is not a logical equivalent. In other words “X” does not imply “not Y.” Take for example

1. Cats are felines
2. If an animal is not a cat, it is not a feline.

This second statement is a negative of the first, but is false. The best answer I ever heard on this issue of holding hands came from Cardinal Arinze where he said it is not right to try and regiment the people of God (as they were an army). It’s alright, as long as a new position is not proscribed. Meaning, anything that develops organically, that is, just happens, is okay, but it is not to be preached or mandated.

I am not saying his off the cuff remarks where authoritative, only that they make the most sense to me. Some here get too worked up over the little things.

 

[melonhead]

melonhead:

And you didn’t answer my question: do I have the leeway to not obey the bishop when he says to not do something that isn’t approved

Really?

I didn’t indicate any such thing. Yet you seem fixated on it.

As I’ve said, twice, your bishop is giving his opinion to his diocese. That doesn’t effect outside his diocese.

Yes, totes for realz. Perhaps it’s my CDO kicking in. It’s like OCD, but with the letters arranged alphabetically, the way they should be.

I said it was based off instructions from the pastor, who in turn received them from the bishop. You replied:

Which means for you and your parish, they prefer that you don’t hold hands. They do not speak for every parish.

Implying that what the bishop says only carries weight in my parish, not the rest of the parishes in his diocese.

My response was:

What the bishop says about responses by the laity as directed by GIRM only applies to my parish, not the rest in the diocese he governs? Interesting.

Having re-read that post, I apologize if I came off as excessively snarky. It’s a character flaw I’m working on. You pointed out (correctly) that holding hands is not in the GIRM, yet didn’t address my question about the bishop having authority over conduct of the Mass in the rest of his diocese.

 

[maryjk]

Every parish, as in every parish, every where.

Your bishop doesn’t speak for my parish, for example.

Your Bishop may state that he wants only dress shoes to be worn by altar servers. Altar servers at my parish can wear athletic shoes without worry. Because your bishop does speak for all parishes.

See what I mean?

 

[melonhead]

“Every” vs “every in his diocese.” Glad we cleared that up.

 

[jesusmademe]

Having frowned on the traditional gestures- genuflection, bowing, crossing yourself, kneeling, beating the breast, it has been discovered that people still feel a need for gestures. So they are filling the void with new ones.

Also, at the OF the congregation also sing the Pater Noster. Some people want a camfire feeling. And some also want guitar music at Mass.