Holding hands during Pater Noster — Why?

[Dovekin]

Don’t say what isn’t written in black, don’t do what isn’t written in red

Hmmm. This is something of a dilemma, no?

No posture is allowed during the Our Father? That is a pretty impossble rule. Next you will be telling us we can only clap with one hand.

I just came back to this thread to post a link to an article on Maronite practice.

 

[Fauken]

No posture is allowed during the Our Father? That is a pretty impossble rule. Next you will be telling us we can only clap with one hand.

That’s not what it says. It says no assembly gesture. As in the entire congregation.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

Meaning, anything that develops organically, that is, just happens, is okay, but it is not to be preached or mandated.

That’s a little frightening.

 

[maryjk]

Frightening? In what way?

What it means is that if people want to hold hands, they are allowed. But a priest may not tell them that everyone must hold hands.

And since, the Vatican can change what they’ve said, if people start doing something crazy, the Vatican can correct it.

Allowing something doesn’t mean that is allowed forevermore. Nor that the Vatican has to accept everything.

 

[CilladeRoma]

Where in the “Catholic rule book” did you find this information?

 

[MagdalenaRita]

I don’t know that this young lady has any more authority than the next person but she is sincere about her beliefs and I like the video

Thanks for the link of this video. It was very good. I have checked out more of her videos, and they are all just pretty good.

 

[paperwight]

Also, at the OF the congregation also sing the Pater Noster. Some people want a camfire feeling. And some also want guitar music at Mass.

Not always. And not everywhere. In our parish, it depends on the music group. Sometimes we do, sometimes we don’t.

Is it always sung in the parish you go to, then? There’s no rule about it in the OF.

 

[pnewton]

pnewton:

Meaning, anything that develops organically, that is, just happens, is okay, but it is not to be preached or mandated.

That’s a little frightening.

It really should not be. After all, we believe the Holy Spirit guides the Church. Pretty much all we do today in liturgy, outside of half a dozen sentences, has come about through the same guidance. The Church has not collapsed into anarchy. He simply have to have faith in God, and that the Holy Spirit still guides his people.

 

[stpurl]

No offense I trust, but throughout Christian history, the Holy Spirit was said to guide the following: Arians. Nestorians. Marcians. the Orthodox. Various Protestant sects. Etc.

All those and many others thought they were Christians (indeed most thought they were Catholics in the sense of universal ‘catholic’ to the point that in their prayers they still speak of themselves as members of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church). . .

While the Spirit does indeed lead us to all Truth, we are not protected simply because we are Catholics of actually following THE Holy Spirit. Many in fact have followed a spirit which was not the Holy Spirit but a disguise.

And simply following “The Church” was no guarantee one followed the Holy Spirit. Throughout Christian history, we have had long periods with no pope, with ‘bad’ popes, and a 70 plus year history of two or more ‘contending’ Popes.

For much of history, what one followed depended on where one WAS, as actual news was scarce and was filtered through one’s overlord, one’s parish priest or bishop, and one’s country/society.

Today news is often fake, hyped, ambiguous, biased, slanted, etc. and extremely difficult to follow.

Many find that the Pontiff himself through words or actions (as they are reported, I hasten to say) has neither clarified troublesome so-called ‘decisions’ or teachings, nor held to what the Holy Spirit has historically taught. This itself I would say is the greatest difficulty the Church faces today. While one still may ‘follow the Spirit’ by maintaining and believing in the Deposit of Faith as it has been traditionally given lo these many centuries, we are coming perilously close to situation where there will be no longer teachings or actions which can, through violent wrenching and sophistry, skewed to ‘agree’ with past teachings, but rather those which outright contradict the Holy Spirit. And that is certainly not something the Spirit would ever do, so that no matter how well-intentioned those who follow those teachings may be, they will still be wrong.

For decades now we have seen a slow, now increasing, slide from strict adherence to the Faith (seen nowadays by many as ‘rigid’, hateful, intolerant, nostalgic, closed-minded) first to an ‘understanding’ where in certain cases one could be ‘less strict’ (circumstances first for physical inability, then later for emotional or mental inability) which have over time so weakened and watered down the Faith that virtually ANYTHING claimed as a dogma can somehow be ‘not followed’, without any personal sin, due to particular ‘circumstance’. Apparently nobody today can be expected to follow our Lord and His ‘suggestions’ because they are just too hard. And those who advocate that 'we should follow anyway and God will give us grace" are told that is hateful!

I’ll stick to the Holy Spirit I know.

 

[PeterT]

Technically, no posture is prescribed.

So, technically, the people and take up whatever posture they want. If they want to stand with their arms and legs spread out, they are allowed. If they want to curl up in a ball and sit on the floor, they are allowed. And if they want to hold hands, they are allowed.

No, you misunderstood it.

No posture for an assembly gesture is prescribed, an assembly gesture like holding hands, or assuming the orans prayer posture, making the “peace sign”, etc…

What is is prescribed for the “Our Father” is that everyone (who is healthy enough to do so) be standing during the prayer.

As it’s spelled out in the G.I.R.M.:

1. The faithful should stand from the beginning of the Entrance Chant, or while the Priest approaches the altar, until the end of the Collect; for the Alleluia Chant before the Gospel; while the Gospel itself is proclaimed; during the Profession of Faith and the Universal Prayer; and from the invitation, Orate, fratres (Pray, brethren), before the Prayer over the Offerings until the end of Mass, except at the places indicated here below.

The faithful should sit, on the other hand, during the readings before the Gospel and the Responsorial Psalm and for the Homily and during the Preparation of the Gifts at the Offertory; and, if appropriate, they may sit or kneel during the period of sacred silence after Communion.

In the Dioceses of the United States of America, they should kneel beginning after the singing or recitation of the Sanctus (Holy, Holy, Holy) until after the Amen of the Eucharistic Prayer, except when prevented on occasion by ill health, or for reasons of lack of space, of the large number of people present, or for another reasonable cause. However, those who do not kneel ought to make a profound bow when the Priest genuflects after the Consecration. The faithful kneel after the Agnus Dei (Lamb of God) unless the Diocesan Bishop determines otherwise.

For the sake of uniformity in gestures and bodily postures during one and the same celebration, the faithful should follow the instructions which the Deacon, a lay minister, or the Priest gives, according to what is laid down in the Missal.

 

[PeterT]

No. That is not how the rubrics for Mass works. As the article posted by this site said, by that logic, there is nothing keeping me from standing on my head then during Mass.

Except the GIRM is very clear what basic postures (standing, seating, kneeling) are allowed during Mass. Standing on one’s head is not one of them.

 

[otjm]

It isn’t. There is absolutely nothing - zero - as to how the laity should hold their hands in any part of the GIRM or the “red”. Zip. Nada.
And Rome has had basically 50 years to make a rule. The silence is deafening.

Archbishop Chaput knows a bit more about it that anyone on this thread, and his comment is, if you want to hold hands, hold hands, if you don’t want to hold hands, don’t, and both sides need to be charitable to the other.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

Archbishop Chaput knows a bit more about it that anyone on this thread, and his comment is, if you want to hold hands, hold hands, if you don’t want to hold hands, don’t, and both sides need to be charitable to the other.

Bishop's Decree: Stop Holding Hands

Hot on the heels of the new Roman Missal translation, the Bishop of Covington, Roger J. Foys, has issued a decree clarifying the proper gestures and

www.patheos.com

Quote from above article:
“Special note should also be made concerning the gesture for the Our Father . Only the priest is given the instruction to “extend” his hands. Neither the deacon nor the lay faithful are instructed to do this. No gesture is prescribed for the lay faithful in the Roman Missal; nor the General Instruction of the Roman Missal , therefore the extending or holding of hands by the faithful should not be performed.”

https://catholicmom.com/2017/08/25/hold-hands-not-father-question/

Comment from above article:
DEACON TOM on [AUGUST 26, 2017 16:26]
I think I’ve shared elsewhere that Archbishop Chaput (formerly of Denver) once mentioned this rather directly in a homily about faith practices. He gently but firmly suggested that our hands should be folded upward – just our hands as in speaking directly and personally with Our Father. At the time, I was very much into holding my hands upward in a sign of surrender — so it’s taken a bit, but I’ve mostly respected the direction of the AB and I now put my two hands together.

 

[flamingpuppet]

I don’t care if others hold hands, though lifting them up can be distracting. But grabbing someone’s hand uninvited, especially a child’s, is seriously wrong.

 

[stpurl]

I agree, but that’s because I know first hand how a person with arthritis or autoimmune disorders can suffer extreme and intense and long-lasting pain from having a hand taken; even by someone who thinks he or she is doing so gently.

At the same time, I also know how lonely a person can be, a widow or widower, empty nest, often the only place where they can get out with any regularity being a church, and how comforting would be the touch of another person.

It’s a difficult situation. Honestly, I would think the BEST situation would be first of all, for everybody who comes to church hearing (in the bulletin perhaps), something like this:

Welcome to St. X. Because some of our church members have difficulty with pain, we’d like to remind all people here that, at the sign of peace especially, please do not be offended if you ‘reach out a hand’ and the other person just bows a head, but does not reach back. This is not meant as a refusal of YOU personally.
We also know that some of our members can be in a situation where they are alone for most of their days and really appreciate physical contact and closeness with others. As you become a more regular member we hope that people will get to know those who are more extroverted and those who need more physical contact, as well as those who are more introverted and those who for physical or other reasons need less physical contact, such that people will be seated with those others who will be best able to reciprocate to the fullest. Until then, please be attentive to the needs of those next to you. If you can offer a hand to someone who needs it, please do so. If you can ‘refrain’, and not take offense, from someone who needs your restraint, please do so. In all cases, assume the best of the other person. God bless.

 

[flamingpuppet]

Today the priest omitted the sign of peace, and the choir went straight into the Agnus Dei. Some people were still waving around and the guy in front of me turned around but I kept on singing.
Seriously, once that holy, ancient petition begins, the meet and greet needs to stop.

 

[Dorothy]

And it helps very much when the proper instructions come from the clergy!

In my parish some do and some don’t. (no one imposes themselves on someone else). If they were told by the clergy not to do it, there would be no doubt.

 

[catholic03]

Some people have a huge issue with holding hands or using the orans position during the Our Father. I don’t do it, I have my hands in the prayer position. But as far as I am concerned, I don’t mind if others do it, although I would prefer if they didn’t.

 

[pnewton]

No offense I trust, but throughout Christian history, the Holy Spirit was said to guide the following: Arians. Nestorians. Marcians. the Orthodox. Various Protestant sects. Etc.

I am not offended. I do not get your comparisons, thinking them rather extreme. We are not talking about beliefs, but a cultural thing. It has simply developed (in places). No pope has had any issue with it, most likely because it was simply an organic development.

Like I said, as I stand in front, I do not hold hands so those few who do not will not feel they are alone.

 

[Tolle_Lege]

To be honest, the hand holding is very effeminate. Right before we say the Our Father, I tell my young children to “make their Amen hands” lest an eager hand-holder grabs them away in an act of holy hand holding.