Holding hands during the Lord's Prayer-Respectfully Declining

[TimothyH]

I understand where you are coming from, though I don’t thinking taking our Lord’s words regarding the will of God the Father is particularly appropriate or applicable in this situation.

However, there are two mitigating factors. The first of these is that I had a cold at the time and I was trying not to spread it. Secondly, the whole thing happened very rapidly. My hands were already completely clasped together when she grabbed and tried to pull them apart so that by the time I registered what was going on, they were completely clasped and we had already started the prayer. One could reasonably suggest that if she looked and saw my hands clasped together in front of me, perhaps it would have been polite to leave well enough alone.

If I could have spoken to her afterwards I could have explained it, or even during the sign of peace, but she did not give me that option. There are many times in my life where I have been the bad guy, but i’m not seeing it here.

Understood about the cold and how rapidly things happen. I did almost the same thing, just wanted to stand by myself and not hold hands one day. The woman next to me was Mexican or black or something and turned toward me as the prayer started, and then actually commented audibly to the person on the other side of her after the prayer that I was racist and wouldn’t offer me the sign of peace.

But the virtue of obedience is very misunderstood. People often confuse subservience with obedience. Being subservient means being less important. Obedience however, is preferring the will of another to one’s own will. That is what Paul is talking about when he says that wives should obey their husbands. It doesn’t mean to be less important, but to prefer the husband’s will to their own. That is how our Pope can be the Supreme Pontiff and still be obedient - to prefer the will of another over his own.

I’ll tell you a secret. I was discerning a call to the diactonate for a long time. I am now discerning a call to matrimony. Yes, it is true. I can hardly believe it myself. How it all unfolded, and continues to unfold, is spectacular, but I digress…

I think Jesus word’s about the will of the father are entirely applicable. Such is one of the most basic dispostion of a monk or nun, to always and in all things, prefer the will of a Brother or Sister to one’s own will. In so doing, we imitate Christ who said “My time has not yet come” to his mother but obeyed when his mother said, “Do whatever he tells you”, and in so doing we teach ourselves not abandon our own desires, to detach from self, for the good of another. How cool would a marriage be if both spouses continually said, “Not my will, but thy will be done” and deferred to each other, each going out of their way to please the other instead of themself? I think that would be a really cool marriage, and would help each other get to heaven.

I’m really not trying to lecture here, just express my own spirituality.

Sometimes I prefer to stand by myself, but if someone grabs my hand then I reciprocate, because at the end of the day I helps me to imitate Christ.

-Tim-

 

[styrgwillidar]

That has worked for me most of the time.

However, when I was traveling recently, a woman grabbed my hand as I was in the process of bringing them together in front of me. I smiled politely and gave a small head shake, and she became very offended. She would not even look my direction during the sign of peace and virtually ran away after Mass before I could explain why I declined.

You really didn’t owe her an explanation. I wish people would stop taking offense where none is intended. We should be biased the other way, to be charitable and assume there are good reasons on the other persons part.( or even challenge our own presumption that someone should act a certain way).

A person may not want to shake hands for a variety of reasons, and frankly, it’s not my place to decide whether they’re valid.

• They’re uncomfortable doing it
• They think it’s disrepecful (ala a priestly gesture vice parishoner…)
• Injured hand
• Arthritis
• Sensitive nerves
• Prior experiences making them disinclined to touch others
• Cultural background where touching or initiating touching with non-family is frowned upon

etc. etc. etc.

 

[cheezey]

I understand where you are coming from, though I don’t thinking taking our Lord’s words regarding the will of God the Father is particularly appropriate or applicable in this situation.

However, there are two mitigating factors. The first of these is that I had a cold at the time and I was trying not to spread it. Secondly, the whole thing happened very rapidly. **My hands were already completely clasped together when she grabbed and tried to pull them apart so that by the time I registered what was going on, they were completely clasped and we had already started the prayer. ** One could reasonably suggest that if she looked and saw my hands clasped together in front of me, perhaps it would have been polite to leave well enough alone.

If I could have spoken to her afterwards I could have explained it, or even during the sign of peace, but she did not give me that option. There are many times in my life where I have been the bad guy, but i’m not seeing it here.

I am not seeing it, either. And my goodness she was determined. To actually attempt to pull yur hands apart? That’s just odd…

 

[MissBorgia]

+1

+2

 

[Bruised_Reed]

If I am at my home parish it is usually my family next to me so no problem, but if away I just keep my hands folded. I can’t really believe anyone would be offended.

The more determined they are to hold your hand, the more offended they can be.

 

[Hrvatski]

In my case it kind of works itself out. I don’t mind holding hands but I stand 6’10 and if you are of shorter stature and standing next to me chances are that when we lift our hands toward the end of the prayer you are going to end up off the ground at the least or a shoulder dislocation at the worst. People tend to shy away from me. But at heart I am just a sensitive big guy.
Ski

 

[TimothyH]

I’m not seeing it either.

If any of us get to Heaven, we are going to love that person standing next to us whose hand we are unwilling to hold, more than we have loved anything or anyone here on earth. Hadn’t we better get used to it now?

Do not neglect to show hospitality to strangers, for thereby some have entertained angels unawares. (Hebrews 13:2)

For crying out loud, we are supposed to be willing to die for each other just like Christ died for us. It’s one thing to want to stand alone, but if someone reaches out and grabs my hand, I’m thinking that I should be looking to see if that hand has nail marks.

No, I’m really not seeing it at all either.

-Tim-

 

[cheezey]

In my case it kind of works itself out. I don’t mind holding hands but I stand 6’10 and if you are of shorter stature and standing next to me chances are that when we lift our hands toward the end of the prayer you are going to end up off the ground at the least or a shoulder dislocation at the worst. People tend to shy away from me. But at heart I am just a sensitive big guy.

                                                         Ski

awwww…

 

[RedSparklyShoes]

In my case it kind of works itself out. I don’t mind holding hands but I stand 6’10 and if you are of shorter stature and standing next to me chances are that when we lift our hands toward the end of the prayer you are going to end up off the ground at the least or a shoulder dislocation at the worst. People tend to shy away from me. But at heart I am just a sensitive big guy.

                                                         Ski

Lifting hands? I’ve never seen this. What part do you lift hands at?

 

[Hrvatski]

" For Thine is the Kingdom, the Power and the Glory forever and ever, Amen"

 

[ARags]

A LOT of people at Mass in my parish hold arms/hands out about chest high, with palms up during the Lord’s prayer. I don’t know where that came from, but has gradually grown, so that at least a third of the congregation appear to be doing it. When I first moved here about 20 years ago, I don’t remember anyone doing this.

 

[R_C]

Maybe I have spent too much time around monks, but wouldn’t it have been better to imitate our Lord who said, “Not my will, but thy will be done” and just held the woman’s hand rather than offend?

-Tim-

Acting properly, especially in the context of sacred liturgy, is never offensive, but only edifying.

 

[Reborn2013]

Smile if you shake your head, it will make the person not be so offended if they were. However, they shouldn’t. If it were me, I’d think you were sick and didn’t want to spread germs. Then I’d wonder why you were sitting so close if you were contagious and should have stayed home. NOT REALLY.:dancing: Another thing, I think that is your option. IE: Closing your eyes and folding your hands. Actually, I like holding hands during the Our Father. Brings a unity that otherwise I would not have with the person sitting next to me.

I’m sorry but if you make eye contact with someone wanting to hold your hand, you simply must. Anything would be a breach of ediquite. No pun intended, but you know what they say about how to act “when on Rome…”

I am really surprised that this is such a ubiquitious practice that there are numerous strategies out there to avoid it. If is really really bothers you, I promise you would not encounter this situation at a trad mass. Just sayin.

 

[R_C]

If any of us get to Heaven, we are going to love that person standing next to us whose hand we are unwilling to hold, more than we have loved anything or anyone here on earth. Hadn’t we better get used to it now?

Do not neglect to show hospitality to strangers, for thereby some have entertained angels unawares. (Hebrews 13:2)

For crying out loud, we are supposed to be willing to die for each other just like Christ died for us. It’s one thing to want to stand alone, but if someone reaches out and grabs my hand, I’m thinking that I should be looking to see if that hand has nail marks.

Ok , I’ll be a bit blunt: messing with the liturgy is not the best way to show our hospitality or even our willingness to die for one another. The sacred liturgy is not the work of human hands, or at least it should never be such…it is the result of literally almost two millennia of tradition, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. When individuals, no matter how many, adopt a novel custom, that is not proper. One can bear it with charity - as if one grabs my hand before I fold them - but one cannot promote what is the result of personal initiative.

Holy Mass, contrary to popular belief (especially in the last few decades) is about Christ, about God. It is not about making friends or interacting with our fellow brothers in Christ. It is in focusing on the Spotless Lamb alone that we find true communion with our brothers and sisters. Mass should be totally and entirely focused on Him, with utmost reverence and attention towards the altar and the minister acting in persona Christi, as if Jesus Christ Himself stood before our very eyes.

Instead too often we find a disordered motion towards the people, which is not always openly condemned by the Church but nevertheless affects reverence in Mass, and not for the best…it’s not the fact of holding hands per se…it’s the idea that somehow we must introduce these novel elements of get-together…that somehow we must show more closeness to one another…thus we hold hands, but we also find extra-rubrical “good mornings” and “good afternoons”, or else sometimes there are motions of clapping, or we find a priest walking down from the ambo and interacting with the congregation or even asking questions as if the homily was some sort of dialogue amidst peers, or an excessive interaction of lay faithful in Holy Communion when priests and deacons should be present instead…and finally, Mass ends and many form small groups and start chatting, rather than devoutly keeping company to God who is physically present within them…all of this is an expression of the very same issue, and if we try to deny that there is an issue and we try to justify one or the other occurrence, we are simply not offering the best we have to offer in terms of liturgy.

So yes, people have excellent reasons to not want to accept the imposition of this novelty. That does not mean that those who adopt them at some point don’t do it with the best intentions and full of love…that does not mean that we should respond full of charity, seeing Christ reflected through our neighbor…but we can and should understand and accept the liturgy as it is, not adapt it as we personally think it should be.

 

[R_C]

I’m sorry but if you make eye contact with someone wanting to hold your hand, you simply must.

Says who?

 

[larsont7]

How to solve your problem:

1. Find a TLM and this will never be an issue.
2. If one is not available, find an OF nearby that doesn’t do this.
3. If that is not possible, sit as far away from other people as you can.
4. If the church is packed, go with the fake arm idea that was posted earlier.

Problem solved.

 

[otjm]

Ok , I’ll be a bit blunt: messing with the liturgy is not the best way to show our hospitality or even our willingness to die for one another. The sacred liturgy is not the work of human hands, or at least it should never be such…it is the result of literally almost two millennia of tradition, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. When individuals, no matter how many, adopt a novel custom, that is not proper. One can bear it with charity - as if one grabs my hand before I fold them - but one cannot promote what is the result of personal initiative.

Holy Mass, contrary to popular belief (especially in the last few decades) is about Christ, about God. It is not about making friends or interacting with our fellow brothers in Christ. It is in focusing on the Spotless Lamb alone that we find true communion with our brothers and sisters. Mass should be totally and entirely focused on Him, with utmost reverence and attention towards the altar and the minister acting in persona Christi, as if Jesus Christ Himself stood before our very eyes.

Instead too often we find a disordered motion towards the people, which is not always openly condemned by the Church but nevertheless affects reverence in Mass, and not for the best…it’s not the fact of holding hands per se…it’s the idea that somehow we must introduce these novel elements of get-together…that somehow we must show more closeness to one another…thus we hold hands, but we also find extra-rubrical “good mornings” and “good afternoons”, or else sometimes there are motions of clapping, or we find a priest walking down from the ambo and interacting with the congregation or even asking questions as if the homily was some sort of dialogue amidst peers, or an excessive interaction of lay faithful in Holy Communion when priests and deacons should be present instead…and finally, Mass ends and many form small groups and start chatting, rather than devoutly keeping company to God who is physically present within them…all of this is an expression of the very same issue, and if we try to deny that there is an issue and we try to justify one or the other occurrence, we are simply not offering the best we have to offer in terms of liturgy.

So yes, people have excellent reasons to not want to accept the imposition of this novelty. That does not mean that those who adopt them at some point don’t do it with the best intentions and full of love…that does not mean that we should respond full of charity, seeing Christ reflected through our neighbor…but we can and should understand and accept the liturgy as it is, not adapt it as we personally think it should be.

Sorry, but this is not a novelty as it has been going on in Mass for at least 47 years - well beyond the time that according to some, may have the effect of becoming a standardized posture.

 

[otjm]

At Mass, I always make sure that I have my eyes closed, head bowed, and hands folded in a prayerful manner when we are to say the Our Father. It helps me concentrate on the meaning of the words AND avoids the hand-holding (which is NOT in the Rubrics).

You are right that it is not in the rubrics - because nothing is in the rubrics as to posture.

Rome has seen fit to not answer the issue, and it is at least 47 years old.

And by the way, holding your hands with palms together and fingers pointing out, or interlaced is NOT in the Rubrics either. By your logic, that is also to be prohibited - except that no one is going to go there because they see that Rubrics are not the answer.

 

[larsont7]

Sorry, but this is not a novelty as it has been going on in Mass for at least 47 years - well beyond the time that according to some, may have the effect of becoming a standardized posture.

It’s not up to the laity (or the clergy, for that matter), to create new postures to become standardized. The fact is that holding or raising hands during the Our Father during Mass is an illicit act (as shown in previous posts with citations) that some parishes and dioceses are trying to standardize.

 

[Reborn2013]

Says who?

It is called manners.