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angelic06
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I’m sorry, but the woman should also have thought that.
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april32010
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ProVobis
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Not a good idea if your name is Edward Scissorhand either.
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otjm
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This is true; but true charity is not determined by the graciousness of the recipient of charity.I’m sorry, but the woman should also have thought that.
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ARags
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Our local Bishop and priests ARE knowledgeable about church liturgy. Father said the church had not approved hand holding during the Lord’s Prayer, which it hasn’t – but has not disapproved of it either.
It was a matter of information, not criticism, and he was correct. He is also exceptionally charitable.
Father was also correct that raised hands during prayer at Mass is a posture only for the ordained. The people have many postures in common with the priest: kneel, bow head, sign of the cross, genuflecting. as well as holding hands with palms together during prayer – all taught to children in parochial school. Including future priests.
The Arch Bishop’s superior knowledge was not contradicted by my priest.
We are in agreement that kindness and charity towards each other are more important than whether one holds hands or not.
It was a matter of information, not criticism, and he was correct. He is also exceptionally charitable.
Father was also correct that raised hands during prayer at Mass is a posture only for the ordained. The people have many postures in common with the priest: kneel, bow head, sign of the cross, genuflecting. as well as holding hands with palms together during prayer – all taught to children in parochial school. Including future priests.
The Arch Bishop’s superior knowledge was not contradicted by my priest.
We are in agreement that kindness and charity towards each other are more important than whether one holds hands or not.
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cheezey
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HA!!!
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R_C
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I shall call a novelty anything that developed after the rise of protestantism and its anti-liturgical heresy, and particularly each and every practice within the Holy Mass that is not clearly allowed and is not found in Tradition in the Roman Rite or any other Rite.
I refuse to accept that if a group of people decide to, say, clap twice at the elevation, and manage to get enough support in order to continue this for a few decades, then the Universal Church has to accept it as a “custom”. Are priests walking down the ambo and asking questions to the congregation also a “custom”? Is the complete absence of incense also a “custom”? Is chatting immediately after Mass rather than keeping in recollection for 10 to 15 minutes also a “custom”?
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R_C
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I am not surprised that the USCCB was moving to request permission. After all, they requested and obtained permission for communion in the hand all the while Pope Paul VI was contrary to this practice and reaffirmed the need to retain the practice of communion in the mouth (in Memorare Domini). They do this because they are facing an internal pastoral issue: many lay faithful doing something, and the inability to stop that “something”. Clearly the only thing left is to try to bring some order and licitness into the picture, rather than having a widespread liturgical abuse over their territory.
That does not change the fact that the *orans *posture is in Sacred Tradition and in a liturgical contest a posture reserved for the ordained minister acting in persona Christi, and that the holding of hands is a posture that the lay faithful came up with, an illicit change introduced into the Ordinary Form of the Roman Rite.
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maryjk
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Going back to the OP.What is the appropriate way to decline the holding of hands during the Lord’s Prayer? When the person next to me tries to hold my hand what do I do? Sometimes I can just act like I don’t notice them but other times, they will just grab my hand.
It depends on why you don’t hold hands.
Sick? Tell them. “Sorry, I’m not feeling well”
Like me and have arthritic hands? Again, tell them. That’s what I do.
Think it is wrong? You can either get into a discussion after Mass. (Good luck with that) Or you can just say, “Sorry” and shake your head.
One thing not to do, is to ignore them. It could very well be that they always hold hands, and have no idea that there are people that don’t. So, ignoring them, and hoping they don’t reach for your hand, takes away the time you have to tell them you don’t.
I make full eye contact. Hold my hands together. The second someone reaches for my hand, I shake my head a bit, and say, “sorry, arthritic hands.” That normally also makes it that they don’t squeeze my hand during the sign of peace.
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randirhoades
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I would have cried too. For living lonely at my home really gets to me and for a few seconds someone holding my hand or reaching out to hug me would have had me in tears. And knowing me, I’d probably cry silently right then and there. I’d bend my head down for no one to see but cry just the same. Human touch provides a firm sense of belonging. A simple touch is an acknowledgment of your presence and your value. Being touched is a basic human need. It is as important to human survival as air, light, water and food. We believe that energy flows freely between human beings, making physical contact with another fulfills the fundamental desire to be connected somehow. Sorry for the psychology lesson but all of this is true and I agree that I don’t see anything wrong with one or two minutes, however long it takes to say the “Our Father”. If it were permissible I would even walk up to the altar and hold the Priest’s hand. I know that is loony sounded, but that is me.
And holding hands while saying the Lord’s Prayer gives that prayer a more worshipful feel towards God IMO. It’s like saying we all come together in a community with our voices and bodies to say the prayer that Jesus taught us. I just love God so much.
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ccmcmg
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If someone INSISTED and grabbed my hand, I would not refuse. This may be my only Mass of the day, but it is NOT the only time I’ll say the Lord’s Prayer of the day. However, my husband and I have discussed it, and after researching it, have declined to hold hands, not even with each other, during Mass, for it is not a community type prayer, as I understand it. We pray with our hands together.
But if someone INSISTED on grabbing my hand, I would not decline. However, our parish members have a variety of postures, but I don’t believe God wants me to ‘call them out’ either by refusing or admonishing them. Perhaps that person doesn’t know why we do or don’t hold hands, or have various postures during Mass. I hope that every Mass I attend, I can do so as perfectly as possible; but that isn’t possible as we are not perfect. I don’t like the holding hands, or the raising of the arms/hands, imitating the Priest’s gestures, and I think I read that we are not supposed to do so.
On a side note, I grew up ‘traditionally’ where we knelt at the proper times, etc. Our first visit to our temporary (for many reasons) parish upon moving to the city, we were CHEWED OUT after Mass because we knelt at the prescribed times (RUBRICS!!!) instead of standing. My kneeling did not affect anyone else’s ‘view’ or prayer. The following weeks and months made way to abuses that made the kneeling/standing issue very very minor, but it was a hint of what was to come.
I am not at Mass to judge others, nor am I there to impress others. It is GOD I need to answer to, and be judged by, and impress.
Christina
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adrift
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The problem I have with this statement is the GIRM is a positive direction. It tells us what we can do not what we can not do. Since it is not in the GIRM,it shouldn’t be done as a group. That means the priest should not direct the congregation to hold hands which is how it got started in the first place. The priest should not be holding hands with whoever is on the altar. He should be in the Orans position. You are making an argument since nothing is said that it says something but the reverse is the truth.
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otjm
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Why don’t you do a bit of historical research on the matter? Pope Paul 6 started the process which the bishops could follow to request CITH (Memoriale Domini in 1969) and it was not until 1973 that the bishops requested the option, and the request was granted in 1977.
An interesting characterization of our bishops.
Several years ago Archbishop Chaput - not a bishop I would call a liberal - finally got tired of all the bickering over holding hands during the Our Father. According to the Archbishop, there is no rule as to the posture one is to take during the Our Father, and those who say that it is illicit are wrong. Further, according to him, those that choose to hold hands are free to do so and are not to be criticized.
In the same statement, he said that those who choose to not hold hands are also free to not do so, and are not to be criticized. and he ended up by saying that both sides need to exercise charity towards the pother.
I consider the Archbishop, since he is the chief liturgist of his area, to know a bit more about it than someone who simply does not like the matter; and if he says that there is no rule and therefore it is not illicit, I am inclined to pay more attention to him than someone who goes on and on about it being illicit.
Canon lawyers are in disagreement on several areas, including whether or not the passage of 30 years of continual process is sufficient to establish it as a custom; Dr. Edward Peters seems to hold that it is not, and another Canonist who was a member of the forum seems to hold that it may be. In any event, Rome has known about the matter for well over 40 years and three times has ignored it.
There are two Western Law philosophies; you are clearly Germanic in your approach; and that is not by any means illegitimate. However, Rome is in the Mediterranean, which area is of a different philosophy; and Cardinal Arinze, in answering the dubium from Cardinal George concerning posture upon returning to the pew after receiving (The GIRM appeared to indicate standing was required until all had received) replied in a very Mediterranean fashion saying that Rome did not intend to be so rigid in its approach to posture.
I don’t have a dog in this fight; I don’t care if I hold hands or don’t. I don’t initiate it, but if someone wants to hold hands, then in charity I will. And if they don’t, then in charity I won’t. And being 3/4 Holland Dutch, that may say something coming from a background that tends to be rigid.
And by the way, there are uncountable pictures of saints - all of them steeped in Sacred Tradition - standing in the orans posture. It is a prayer posture that predates Sacred Tradition.
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ProVobis
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The question then becomes, will your husband be offended if another man were to want to hold your hand. Hey, I know for a fact these types of practical issues have come up. Or seeing grown men holding hands. I know I feel uncomfortable about that.
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ccmcmg
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Of course not. It’s Mass! However, I would probably go ahead and join hands with my husband as well.
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ProVobis
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I know, Mass is Mass, but I’m human and I don’t mind if a pretty woman decides to sit close by. Just being honest.
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otjm
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Well, a study of the philosophy of law would indicate that you are taking the Germainc approach to law: “What is not permitted is not allowed”.
the other approach to law is the Mediterranean model: Whatever is not prohibited is allowed". Last I checked, Rome was in the Mediterranean.
It also fits with Cardinal Arinze’ response over the prior GIRM which said in so many words that those who had received Communion were to remain standing until all had received. His response was that Rome did not intend to be so rigid about posture.
Part of the problem is that we had chaos during the 1970’s and 1980’s in many areas; much of that has settled down. But a natural reaction is to go to a very rigid approach, as the pendulum swings against the prevailing mood.
Another part of the problem is that in the US in particular, people in general have a tendency to take a very Germanic approach; and if that is all you hear, then the presumption easily follows from that, that the Germanic approach is the proper one.
Unity does not mean uniformity; and either philosophy pushed to its logical conclusion becomes illogical. And many are uncomfortable with anything except rigidity.
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adrift
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Documentation?
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