Holding hands during the Our Father

[maurin]

I’m not sure what I have to “substantiate,” nor did I know I’d ever been pressed for it. For your part, you’ve managed to engage on one or two minor, flippant, or irrelevant points, and mostly ignore the larger discussion, including any discussion of cultural differences, any response to my hypotheticals, etc. I feel like 90% of would-be discourse gets lost when I write several paragraphs and you pick out one small point and answer nothing but, “Well, prove where he said that.”

And it’s not like I’m on this board so that by deft argument I can convince the world that they should adopt my liturgical preferences. Part of being an honest, intellectual person is to meet questions with fair discourse and a spirit of inquiry, rather than with sophistical discourse and a spirit of argumentation. I like to defend things against misconceptions and misguided criticisms, even (perhaps especially) when there were perfectly legitimate criticisms that could have been made instead.

I’ve noticed that those who defend the anthropocentric innovations ultimately resort to either mock horror or indignation when their arguments fall apart.

The Saints, such as St John of the Cross and St Teresa of Avila, teach in their writings about the interiority of meeting God. In the midst of hustle and noise, or exteriority, and you brought up as example Latin cultures, you have been saying that this possible, and that during the highest form of prayer and worship the Church has, this is not only appropriate but permissble. You also raised the tambourine of the psalmist, and for some reason, .st Maximillian kolbe as examples of such exteriority.

Personal liturgical preferences notwithstanding, the Church has a long history of Spiritual and mystical writings which point to the sober and silent path to meeting God by men and women whom the Church honored with the title of Saint.

I’ve only asked why you support the innovations, while you claim to dislike some and refuse to do others.

 

[ProVobis]

Out of curiosity, do you see hand-holding as an attempt to glorify ourselves? That’s a spin I haven’t yet heard put on it.

That reminds me of a joke my dentist told me once.

This old couple went to bed and the husband put his hands over his wife’s. She responded “Not tonight dear, I have a headache.”

Next night he did the same with the same response coming from her.

The third night he again put his hands over his wife’s and this time they both went to sleep.

 

[FAB]

Maybe we should be holding hands any time we pray during the Mass starting with the Gloria, Credo, Sanctus, and Agnus Dei.
If it is such a good idea for the Our Father, why not the rest of these?
Perhaps I will grab and raise the hands of those next to me at the Gloria next Sunday.
How do you think folks will react?

Good question and the answer is simple.
At the time of the Lord’s prayer we are begining the time of communion in the mass, we have all just shared in the sacrafice at the table and are now as a single community praying together as Christ taught us. It should hold for us a particular since holiness.

The Gloria, Credo, Sanctus, and Agnus Dei each hold thier own meaning within the mass.

Peace,
FAB

 

[FAB]

Nope. The Church is not a democracy. The majority doesn’t know better than Christ.

And, by its nature, hand holding focuses on oneself rather than God, especially when holding hands with a stranger. The handshake of peace is enough, in my opinion, to acknowledge those around you as members of a community which worships God.

It is the Holy Spirit which guides the Church. Do you not think that the communication can come from the faithful?
Jesus told us to love our nieghbor, is not a simple gesture of hold a strangers hand part of that love. To take someones hand meeans you have to give part of yourself to another.
You take a child’s hand to give secutity, hold your wife or husbands hand as a sign of love, shake hands in a form of friendship, take the hand of someone who is sick to comfort them.
It seems to me that those who object to the practice are focused on themself and NOT on God.
Peace,
FAB

 

[FAB]

As far as I can see, holding hands during the Our Father is not an appropriate practice, according to multiple sources, including CA’s own Karl Keating.

ewtn.com/expert/answers/holding_hands_at_mass.htm
catholic.com/newsletters/kke_060411.asp

Perhaps, before looking at why the Church should do what it is that we like, we should ask why would we change what has been in place without sufficient cause?

Secondarily, are we going to Mass to please ourselves, or even others? Because loving someone is teaching them what is right. It might seem compassionate to take the hand of someone else, and perhaps outside of Mass, it is. But, Mass is not about social connections, or even pleasing others. It is a time where we worship our Creator, in the prescribed format. Humility, submission, and obedience cannot be overstated.

As I indicated in another post, there is disagreement amoung the theologians about the practice.

Peace,
FAB

 

[ProVobis]

You take a child’s hand to give secutity, hold your wife or husbands hand as a sign of love, shake hands in a form of friendship, take the hand of someone who is sick to comfort them.

Are you going to tell me it’s okay for some stranger to come over and hold your child’s hand to give him security or someone else to hold your wife’s hands as a sign of love? That’s exactly what you’re saying if you’re saying everyone is supposed to hold hands in church. I don’t know about you but when I even see two males (except father and son) holding hands anywhere I feel somewhat uncomfortable. Am I alone?

It seems to me that those who object to the practice are focused on themself and NOT on God.

That one is way over my head.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

I want to know how and when this practice came to be in the Catholic Church? I think it comes from the Evangelical churches where everyone does this. Like most people have said here, not many people do this in my church, but there are always some. If someone seems really needy to hold hands, I will do it, but generally I prefer not to. I also don’t like the arms out gesture when saying “and also with you” to the Priest. But it’s no big deal, I just wonder how it all came to be.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Unlike most other postures at Mass, the idea of ‘holding hands’ at the Our Father came about ‘externally.’ Where it came from is not precisely known (sort of like how the idea of Spinach dip kind of ‘beamed’ into consciousness sometime in the mid 1970s. At one point, nobody was making spinach dip; next minute, it seemed that every party one went to had everybody bringing the dip! And it has been ‘claimed’ by thousands of people as ‘their’ secret recipe.It may be only a coincidence that spinach dip AND holding hands came about in the same time period for most people --the mid 70s. Then again. . . .)

It is an example of ‘retroversion’ in that unlike the priest’s hands in orans position, or the directions in the rubrics to sit, kneel and stand, etc., this gesture first ‘landed’ on the congregation and now is being ‘backfitted’ to show a ‘solidarity’, a ‘love’, etc. Of course, it’s not in the RUBRICS but the idea is that since it’s such a great gesture and since we’re supposed to love our neighbor, well by god anybody who objects is a miserable puling button-down fanatic who hates little old ladies and children. . .

 

[WatchingMedia]

We don’t hold hands, shake hands, or put hands in air during Our Father.
The Priest raises his hands.

Where did hand is air come from originally ? Pentacostals?

Our Bishop correctly and in charity discouraged hand shaking and hand holding during the cold and flu season. This can be dangerous for the very young, the elderly, and those with compromised immune systems.

People sneeze in their hands and then shake hands.

Its best to keep hands together in prayer, and eyes down or on the Altar, if you don’t want to shake hands, etc.
It is not a sin to avoid shaking hands. If someone thinks it is sinful, please show me the Church documentation link.

 

[estesbob]

As a studious reader of CAF it woud appear that the quickest way to eternal hellfire is to refuse to hold hands while wearing a bikini at an OF mass.

 

[adrift]

Good question and the answer is simple.
At the time of the Lord’s prayer we are begining the time of communion in the mass, we have all just shared in the sacrafice at the table and are now as a single community praying together as Christ taught us. It should hold for us a particular since holiness.

The Gloria, Credo, Sanctus, and Agnus Dei each hold thier own meaning within the mass.

Peace,
FAB

Holding hands at this point makes the sign of peace absurd.

 

[mariyka]

As a studious reader of CAF it woud appear that the quickest way to eternal hellfire is to refuse to hold hands while wearing a bikini at an OF mass.

 

[FAB]

Holding hands at this point makes the sign of peace absurd.

At the Lord’s prayer we are praying, The sign of peace is not suppose to a “hi how are you” but “the peace of Christ be with you” a blessing and asking that Christ be with them.

Peace,
FAB

 

[FAB]

Unlike most other postures at Mass, the idea of ‘holding hands’ at the Our Father came about ‘externally.’ Where it came from is not precisely known (sort of like how the idea of Spinach dip kind of ‘beamed’ into consciousness sometime in the mid 1970s. At one point, nobody was making spinach dip; next minute, it seemed that every party one went to had everybody bringing the dip! And it has been ‘claimed’ by thousands of people as ‘their’ secret recipe.It may be only a coincidence that spinach dip AND holding hands came about in the same time period for most people --the mid 70s. Then again. . . .)

It is an example of ‘retroversion’ in that unlike the priest’s hands in orans position, or the directions in the rubrics to sit, kneel and stand, etc., this gesture first ‘landed’ on the congregation and now is being ‘backfitted’ to show a ‘solidarity’, a ‘love’, etc. Of course, it’s not in the RUBRICS but the idea is that since it’s such a great gesture and since we’re supposed to love our neighbor, well by god anybody who objects is a miserable puling button-down fanatic who hates little old ladies and children. . .

I suspect that the practice first came from the Catholic Chrismatic movement. That was were I was first exposed to it in the 70’s. I realize to traditionalist that is form of heresy.

As far as the RUBICS, the GIRM instructs as follow:
“Nevertheless, the priest must remember that he is the servant of the Sacred Liturgy and that he himself is not permitted, on his own initiative, to add, to remove, or to change anything in the celebration of Mass.”

As far as I know it does not hold the laity to the same standard. So the holding of hands becomes a personal practice, not restricted by the GIRM.

Peace,
FAB

 

[CHRISTINE77]

I suspect that the practice first came from the Catholic Chrismatic movement. That was were I was first exposed to it in the 70’s. I realize to traditionalist that is form of heresy.

As far as the RUBICS, the GIRM instructs as follow:
“Nevertheless, the priest must remember that he is the servant of the Sacred Liturgy and that he himself is not permitted, on his own initiative, to add, to remove, or to change anything in the celebration of Mass.”

As far as I know it does not hold the laity to the same standard. So the holding of hands becomes a personal practice, not restricted by the GIRM.

Peace,
FAB

I suspect you are right about the Chrismatic movement in the 70’s. I hope that people now converting to Catholicism are instructed not to make these gestures in RCIA classes.

 

[Stylteralmaldo]

As far as I know it does not hold the laity to the same standard. So the holding of hands becomes a personal practice, not restricted by the GIRM.

This seems to be the preferred treatment IMHO. Our parish went through a merger process a few years back with four parishes - some more traditional than others - with at least one of those four parishes practicing holding of hands during the Lord’s Prayer. It appears that the ‘holding hands block’ (for lack of a better term ) has won out - at least in the near term. However, our pastors do not encourage (nor discourage) the holding of hands during the Lord’s prayer. I personally prefer not to hold hands, but am not offended by those who prefer to hold hands. If someone reaches out to hold hands with me, I will do so. I am not distracted by the practice - nor should I be. I am there for God and the added touch of an individual’s hand won’t change that.

 

[FAB]

I personally prefer not to hold hands, but am not offended by those who prefer to hold hands. If someone reaches out to hold hands with me, I will do so. I am not distracted by the practice - nor should I be. I am there for God and the added touch of an individual’s hand won’t change that.

Amem
Peace,
FAB

 

[roadsend]

…
As far as the RUBICS, the GIRM instructs as follow:
“Nevertheless, the priest must remember that he is the servant of the Sacred Liturgy and that he himself is not permitted, on his own initiative, to add, to remove, or to change anything in the celebration of Mass.”

As far as I know it does not hold the laity to the same standard. So the holding of hands becomes a personal practice, not restricted by the GIRM.

Peace,
FAB

So then we the laity can initiate any gestures we wish during the Mass and it is permissible as a “personal practice”?

Holy rollers and snake handlers, here we come!

 

[FAB]

So then we the laity can initiate any gestures we wish during the Mass and it is permissible as a “personal practice”?

Holy rollers and snake handlers, here we come!

There’s always someone who has to go to the absurd.

 

[BettyM]

As I am the original poster of this question I should say: Well, first of all I am not against touching peoples hands. I am a nurse and I do that all the time. If germs or touching people worried me I would have been in trouble along time ago. I, also, love little old ladies. My job is in a nursing home and so that makes them one of my favorite patients. Also, my mom is a little old lady and I hope to be a little old lady someday.

I have been in churches where the hand holding was insisited by the priest. There were alot of distractions, moving about and people moving in the aisle to find someone to hold their hand.
Just before the Our Father we have been through the most important prayer of the Mass. It is a very solemn moment and what comes soon after is the prayer of the Lamb of God, where we are humbling ourselves telling God we are not worthy to recieve Him, body, blood, soul and divinity, but He comes to us anyway out of love. I like maintaining the solemnity of the moment and having been away from the Church and now back and understand what miracle just took place at the Eucharistic prayer, I feel it is a very special moment.

I can’t read peoples hearts but it just appears the hand holding and raising of hands at the end takes away our focus on God and puts it on ourselves and causes alot of distractions. It also seems redundant when soon comes the sign of peace.

I have been in an evangelical protestant area for quite a few years and have struggled with trying to find unity. Coming into the Catholic Church was great. I love the unity here. I am at awe every Sunday when we are saying the Our Father that all around the world Catholics together are praying this prayer and the rest of the Mass. For me it is a very awesome moment with our hearts united in prayer.

If people want to hold hands and raise them up to God that is fine but I don’t feel if it is something you do not want to do you should have to. If that is what you want to do then do it and just pay attention to how others are praying at that time and don’t force them to do what feels uncomfortable to them.