Holding hands during the Our Father

[jen_fla]

if a prayer posture is a stumbling block for him, then he isn’t ready to become a Catholic
if he’s going to a Catholic Church and expecting something similar to a Lutheran church, then he’s looking for a Lutheran church, not a Catholic Church

the funny thing is when ever i see people holding hands i think to myself when did this protestant custom make it’s way into the Church as i have never seen anyone do it in any Catholic Church in any state or country up until somewhat recently.

personally i can not stand it and find it very distracting. i had stitches in my thumb once and the woman next to me just grabbed my hand suddenly. i smiled and let her do what she felt she needed to do, but i hate to say if that had been a man i would have yanked my hand back and put up the cold wall of china. i do NOT like being touched at all unless i’ve already decided before that it’s ok.

now on the other hand … heh … the shaking during the peace part always makes my heart swell up with joy.

 

[Reepicheep]

I suspect that the practice first came from the Catholic Chrismatic movement. That was were I was first exposed to it in the 70’s. I realize to traditionalist that is form of heresy.

As far as the RUBICS, the GIRM instructs as follow:
“Nevertheless, the priest must remember that he is the servant of the Sacred Liturgy and that he himself is not permitted, on his own initiative, to add, to remove, or to change anything in the celebration of Mass.”

As far as I know it does not hold the laity to the same standard. So the holding of hands becomes a personal practice, not restricted by the GIRM.

Peace,
FAB

If it’s a personal practice, then on what grounds do you insist I should take part in your personal practice?
Because the GIRM does not specifically forbid it, does not mean it’s a good idea. Nor does it mean that nobody should be allowed to object to it.

So then we the laity can initiate any gestures we wish during the Mass and it is permissible as a “personal practice”?

Holy rollers and snake handlers, here we come!

There’s always someone who has to go to the absurd.

And just a few decades ago an unbroken chain of hand holding across the aisles pew to pew throughout the worship space would have been absurd and unthinkable, especially at one of the most solemn times of the Mass.
The absurd has a way of becoming common place when folks ignore the rules, disdain tradition, and follow novelties.

I agree with Roadsend on this. There is nothing absurd in the worry that one practice may lead to others.

I would take hold of thier hand, they are my brother or sister in Christ, who died for me and for them. Who am I to refuse them?
I have held the hands of prisoners, of the dying, the grieving,in prayer all my brothers and sisters. The human touch is special, it says I accept you, and on some level I care for you and love you as a child of God. Christ touched the lowest anoung us, how can I do any less?
Certainly I cannot refuse anothers hand in my Fathers house.

Peace,
FAB

I see a difference between being willing to hold another person’s hand, and demanding they hold yours.
Also: what is perfectly appropriate in one place may not be in another.

That is just what I see.

I have been at Masses where as it is time for us to pray (or sing) the Our Father, people get up…

… a little girl and her sister ‘fight’ over who will hold their hand on top

… a woman stops to put sanitizer on her hands because she was blowing her nose just minutes before

… a man moves some 8 feet to one side to get the next person’s hand… and his wife snatches him back because the ‘next person’ is an attractive woman

…a person was at the end of their pew and was praying when they stopped to walk over to another ‘line’ of people to continue the circle.

… a person is at the end of their pew and the people in the pew in front decide she ‘needs’ to hold someone’s hand, so they make a three person hand-holding

… a woman realizes that the woman she ‘can’t stand’ is the next person to go to, so she reaches to the pew behind her (just catty, I tell ya)

… while holding hands, a person has an itch, and try to remove their hands in order to scratch, and have to wrangle his hand free because the holder didn’t want to ‘break the chain’.

… a person with sweaty palms is giggling because of the reaction of the person with whom they are holding hands.

So, yes, IMO, there is a selfish focus when people hold hands. Does it really serve any other person than to try to glorify a person? as a ‘better’ Catholic?

(Sigh) As Apryl points out, there are solid reasons to avoid this practice at Mass.

Making the sign of the cross on the forehead, mouth and heart at the Gospel is also NOT in the rubrics yet everyone does it and no one complains. Why is that? Holding hands is simply a custom that has been developing for decades.

The difference is that I do not try to make the sign of the cross over your forehead, mouth and heart, nor try to insist that you make the sign over mine. This custom does not in any way disturb anyone else.

Edit: Noting what Adrift just posted. The threefold sign of the cross is in fact a part of the rubrics of the Mass, not a private practice.

 

[adrift]

Making the sign of the cross on the forehead, mouth and heart at the Gospel is also NOT in the rubrics yet everyone does it and no one complains. Why is that? Holding hands is simply a custom that has been developing for decades.

Its not From the GIRM emphasis mine

1. At the ambo, the priest opens the book and, with hands joined, says, Dominus vobiscum (The Lord be with you), and the people respond, Et cum spiritu tuo (And also with you). Then he says, Lectio sancti Evangelii (A reading from the holy gospel), making the sign of the cross with his thumb on the book and on his forehead, mouth, and breast, which everyone else does as well. The people say the acclamation Gloria tibi, Domine (Glory to you, Lord). The priest incenses the book, if incense is used (cf. below, nos. 276-277). Then he proclaims the Gospel and at the end says the acclamation Verbum Domini (The gospel of the Lord), to which all respond, Laus tibi, Christe (Praise to you, Lord Jesus Christ). The priest kisses the book, saying quietly, Per evangelica dicta (May the words of the gospel).

 

[MarkThompson]

See post #97.

Um, I did. So? Here’s the difference:
Church: One cannot replace Rubric A with Practice B.
You: So the Church has clearly repudiated Practice B.

 

[adrift]

Well, no, what was repudiated was replacing the sign of peace, which is in the rubrics, with the holding of hands during the Our Father, which is not. That’s made clear by the question, whose answer you printed:
QUERY: In some places there is a current practice whereby those taking part in the Mass replace the giving of the sign of peace at the deacon’s invitation by holding hands during the singing of the Lord’s Prayer. Is this acceptable?

It is also made clear that they are applying the answer to the holding of hands. They also give reasons why they do so.
[LINK](While this addresses the holding of hands at the Sign of Peace the reasons given apply also elsewhere in the Mass, including at the Our Father.)

While this addresses the holding of hands at the Sign of Peace the reasons given apply also elsewhere in the Mass, including at the Our Father.

 

[jen_fla]

i agree with apryl. there is a time and place for everything.

on the rare moments when i attend Mass with my parents they both kiss me on the cheek during peace, but if a strange man came up and did that, that certainly would not be ok. holding hands with my family (although unusual) would not make me feel uncomfortable, but as a woman sitting at Mass by myself, holding hands with a man makes me very tense and a bit angry and then i have to go through in my head all the reasons why i shouldn’t be angry, because this person means no harm and how i hope i’m not making that person feel like he’s doing something wrong and before you know it the prayer is over. fortunately i think the swine flu bit has made this fad die down and it’s not a problem where i go, but on the rare occasions when i go to other parishes, i just keep my hands folded and look straight ahead.

for those that want to hold hands next to a person they know is comfortable with it then fine, but if they are not sure they should refrain. many people have anxiety issues and this just takes away from the prayer.

i like what roadsend said about the holy rollers and snake handlers. so true!

for the posters that asked where this came from, i found this on the link that was posted here on ca:

The late liturgist Fr. Robert Hovda promoted holding hands during this prayer, a practice he said originated in Alcoholics Anonymous. Some ‘charismatic’ groups took up the practice."

 

[MarkThompson]

It is also made clear that they are applying the answer to the holding of hands. They also give reasons why they do so.
[LINK](While this addresses the holding of hands at the Sign of Peace the reasons given apply also elsewhere in the Mass, including at the Our Father.)

Your link doesn’t work, but the part you put in your second quote box is not a quotation from the CDWDS, it’s a gloss, the personal opinion of the EWTN employee who wrote this page.

 

[choy]

the funny thing is when ever i see people holding hands i think to myself when did this protestant custom make it’s way into the Church as i have never seen anyone do it in any Catholic Church in any state or country up until somewhat recently.

personally i can not stand it and find it very distracting. i had stitches in my thumb once and the woman next to me just grabbed my hand suddenly. i smiled and let her do what she felt she needed to do, but i hate to say if that had been a man i would have yanked my hand back and put up the cold wall of china. i do NOT like being touched at all unless i’ve already decided before that it’s ok.

now on the other hand … heh … the shaking during the peace part always makes my heart swell up with joy.

i never did like it even though it is widely practiced in the Philippines, some priests would even encourage everyone to hold hands

but i notice something, you seem to reject the practice because you see it as a protestant gesture? what is so bad if something good can be learned from the protestants? there are many Catholic traditions and celebrations that are pagan of origin, but i don’t hear people here complain about it why do we readily reject practices that are protestant in origin? my priest, when explaining why some traditions begin from pagan celebrations, says its like baptizing the feast to make it Catholic. why can’t we do the same baptism on Protestant practices and make it Catholic?

 

[archangel04]

I would take hold of thier hand, they are my brother or sister in Christ, who died for me and for them. Who am I to refuse them?
I have held the hands of prisoners, of the dying, the grieving,in prayer all my brothers and sisters. The human touch is special, it says I accept you, and on some level I care for you and love you as a child of God. Christ touched the lowest anoung us, how can I do any less?
Certainly I cannot refuse anothers hand in my Fathers house.

Peace,
FAB

Yeah you would do this anywhere in the world other than the Mass. What you are doing is great and is something that has Catholics we are suppose to do, but at Mass we are there to have all eyes and ears on Christ. This is so He may recharge us and we can go back out to the worl and live a Catholic life. At mass I don’t need to feel that somone accepts me, that is of little importance of me, but I do care very much that Christ finds me worth to receive Him. By the way Fab do you remember what Christ first tells Mary Magdalene after the resurrection?

Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to
my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto
my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
John 20:17

Seems like Jesus was not to be tough until he ascended to the Father. Do we not so the same when we go to mass? We approach Jesus and we become on community through Him in Him.

 

[Layman]

why do we readily reject practices that are protestant in origin? my priest, when explaining why some traditions begin from pagan celebrations, says its like baptizing the feast to make it Catholic. why can’t we do the same baptism on Protestant practices and make it Catholic?

One more distraction, one more populist element. Add it to the list and you have a rite veering into the mundane year by year, decade by decade.

Reminds me of a trendy teacher telling the kids to move their desks together, telling them “call me Johnny”, he dumps memorisation and regular tests and then wonders why the kids act up and their marks go down.

 

[CB_Catholic]

i never did like it even though it is widely practiced in the Philippines, some priests would even encourage everyone to hold hands

but i notice something, you seem to reject the practice because you see it as a protestant gesture? what is so bad if something good can be learned from the protestants? there are many Catholic traditions and celebrations that are pagan of origin, but i don’t hear people here complain about it why do we readily reject practices that are protestant in origin? my priest, when explaining why some traditions begin from pagan celebrations, says its like baptizing the feast to make it Catholic. why can’t we do the same baptism on Protestant practices and make it Catholic?

I don’t think this was a Protestant practice until around the same time it made it’s way into the Catholic Mass. I attended some Protestant churches as a child with my grandparents and don’t remember such a thing. They were raither staid, sober services. However they weren’t liturgical services, and I don’t remember the Lord’s prayer being said as a community in them. And today, in the non -demoninational churches, the Lord’s prayer usually is not usually said (at least where I’ve been to) as a community. I am not sure of the origin of this, or if it even originated with the Protestants, or how many Protestants even do this. I read, as an earlier poster mentioned, that it originated in AA meetings, and I’ve attended AA and Al-anon meetings and this is what they do at the end. If this is true, it could very well have been Catholics that are responsible for it. I don’t think anyone is going to be able to come up with the answer to this one. I’d be interested in knowing how many Protestants actually do this in their services, and how long they’ve been doing it.

 

[FAB]

If you have been holding hands at the Our Father, the point of the sign of peace is lessoned and has lost its point. I believe that is why it has been discussed moving the exchange of peace to another part in mass. Theologically, it makes no sense to be offering a sign of peace right after everyone has been hold hands.

There is discussion about moving the kiss of peace to another part of the mass.
The meaning is not so much lost by holding hands during the Lord’s Prayer, but how many treat it as a meet and greet time.
One aatempt my parish uses to combat this tendency is at the very start of mass, before the prcession and entrance song (as such it’s not part of theliturgy of the mass and does not violate the GIRM)we have the congregation greet each other as Jesus would.
It not a perfect solution, but has helped.
Peace,
FAB

 

[BettyM]

i never did like it even though it is widely practiced in the Philippines, some priests would even encourage everyone to hold hands

but i notice something, you seem to reject the practice because you see it as a protestant gesture? what is so bad if something good can be learned from the protestants? there are many Catholic traditions and celebrations that are pagan of origin, but i don’t hear people here complain about it why do we readily reject practices that are protestant in origin? my priest, when explaining why some traditions begin from pagan celebrations, says its like baptizing the feast to make it Catholic. why can’t we do the same baptism on Protestant practices and make it Catholic?

Even though protestants are our brothers and sisters in Christ, they are “protesting” the Catholic Mass. Theirs is a worship service. What we attend is the sacrifice of the Mass and as we add protestant practices and make them Catholic we will, like a snowball rolling down hill, slowly lose our own Catholic practices that were given to us from Jesus through Holy Tradition throughout history.

 

[FAB]

Yeah you would do this anywhere in the world other than the Mass. What you are doing is great and is something that has Catholics we are suppose to do, but at Mass we are there to have all eyes and ears on Christ. This is so He may recharge us and we can go back out to the worl and live a Catholic life. At mass I don’t need to feel that somone accepts me, that is of little importance of me, but I do care very much that Christ finds me worth to receive Him. By the way Fab do you remember what Christ first tells Mary Magdalene after the resurrection?

Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to
my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto
my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
John 20:17

Seems like Jesus was not to be tough until he ascended to the Father. Do we not so the same when we go to mass? We approach Jesus and we become on community through Him in Him.

Waht is the basic change that we are going for? Personal Spirituality? Personal grace?
We are called at thje end of mass to go to love and serve to Lord. What does this mean to you? To love and serve the Lord we must love and serve each other, this rechsrge as youi put it begins with the mass. The mass is not a private celebration, thus the reason why a preist is not to celebrate the eucharist alone, it is a communty celebration. Our eyes can be on Christ that doesn’t mean we ignore each other.

As far as your gospel quote. You have it out of context. After this Easter morning appearance,When Jesus appeared to the aposals after his resurection, he instructed them to touch him do away with their disbeief.
We become one community when we follow his words to care for each other.“As I have done, you must do”

Peace,
FAB

 

[ProVobis]

Making the sign of the cross on the forehead, mouth and heart at the Gospel is also NOT in the rubrics yet everyone does it and no one complains. Why is that?

Because they’re your own hands and it’s between you and God. You can make the sign of the cross almost anytime at Mass and very few will complain, unless it’s done to the point of irritation and distraction.

 

[ProVobis]

Holding hands is simply a custom that has been developing for decades.

It’s also a tool for sexual harrassment.

 

[tapinu33]

Oh my, the whole congregation at my Church hold hands, they even join up the aisles, I hold my baby boy and they grab his hand, I am hoping to move house so I can move Church. I feel like I attend a happy clappy sing a long every Sunday, it grieves me deeply.
Every day I pray for the Holy Father, the Holy Church and the Holy Mass.

 

[FAB]

I feel like I attend a happy clappy sing a long every Sunday, it grieves me deeply.

Sounds like a very joyful, Spirit filled liturgy.

Peace,
FAB

 

[CatholicFireman]

Oh my, the whole congregation at my Church hold hands, they even join up the aisles, I hold my baby boy and they grab his hand, I am hoping to move house so I can move Church. I feel like I attend a happy clappy sing a long every Sunday, it grieves me deeply.
Every day I pray for the Holy Father, the Holy Church and the Holy Mass.

You can change parishes now if you like. You may just have to travel a bit father. If you are not happy there, you are *not happy *there. Not my words…words of a confessor to my wife.

 

[choy]

Even though protestants are our brothers and sisters in Christ, they are “protesting” the Catholic Mass. Theirs is a worship service. What we attend is the sacrifice of the Mass and as we add protestant practices and make them Catholic we will, like a snowball rolling down hill, slowly lose our own Catholic practices that were given to us from Jesus through Holy Tradition throughout history.

so a Protestant practice is worse than a pagan celebration?