Holding hands during the Our Father

[RBK]

Here in the Southern US this practice is widespread, as is going forward for blessings when one is unable to receive the Eucharist. My family does not hold hands, and we’ve never had anyone try to take them during the Our Father, except one time when we were in the Bahamas. There, I had my eyes closed and my hands together and the woman grabbed my hand and insisted that I hold hers.

What is upsetting about this to me is that, as a recent convert, I want to be in union with the Church. Our gestures in Mass should be a part of that unity. When I go home to visit family in another state, it’s chaos. There, depending on which parish you go to, people don’t know when to stand or kneel during the consecration. This is because many parishes have you stand throughout the entire consecration until the last person has received the Eucharist. But many people won’t go along with that so you have half of the people kneeling and half standing.

That’s what has happened with the hand holding. You have some people doing it and others who refuse. It has resulted in disunity and division, something that both Our Lord and St. Paul said should not exist among the faithful. There is a time in the Mass to “hold hands,” and that is during the Sign of Peace. I believe doing so during the Our Father duplicates it from a symbolic point of view, and as a result, detracts from its sign value.

 

[RBK]

I believe doing so during the Our Father duplicates it from a symbolic point of view, and as a result, detracts from its sign value.

To add to what I said above, Archbishop Chaput writes: “The deacon or priest now invites the assembly to share a sign of peace. As one member of the body of Christ to another, we confirm by our actions the supernatural relationship we share. And we are doing more. The simple handshake, nod of the head, or embrace (the Church mandates no specific gesture) to those around us signifies our spiritual kinship in Christ with every other person in the church. As each of the assembly wishes peace to the persons nearby, we acknowledge the call of each person within the body of Christ.”

This seems to be the argument for many who advocate hand holding during the Our Father. We’re already doing it in the Sign of Peace.

Archbishop Chaput’s excellent article here: archden.org/archbishop/docs/12_25_02_liturgy_peace.htm

 

[ljubim]

Vat II in my opinion is responsible for such behaviour. When you relax or change some rules eg taking Our Lord in the hand is now an option but in fact is the norm, taking away alter rails, moving the Tabernacle so much so that when you go into a Church you can’t find Our Lord, (when you enter a Church you should be focused on Our Lord not the Priest) then all these “social” behaviours creep in also.
Bishops and Priests should be addressing these issues and many others like dress code and chatting etc.
In Malta/ Gozo if you enter a church with shorts or a sleeveless t-shirt (man or woman) you are instantly greeted with a large shawl to cover your body as it is grave to show yourself in that way on Sacred ground, or you are asked to leave and return with modest attire.
We should all be on bended knee worshipping Our Lord not chatting and holding hands during prayer, I also see couples with their arms around each other and holding onto each others waists (like lovers).
When you soften the rules its an opening for the devil to enter and take root.
We should all pray for The Holy Father, The Holy Church and The Holy Mass.

Awesome post

The Orthodox give out shawls in Greece too, and other places (like the Vatican) just won’t let you in And I think St. Basil’s won’t let ladies in w/o their headcovering… I really would like unity w/ these guys

 

[choy]

Well, first of all that is not what I said.

But since you asked, my answer is sometimes. It would depend on the practice or lack thereof. A pagan practice could be very minor and be very neutral to the Catholic Church, such as a wreath hanging on your door once meant fertility and today we use it to remind us of God’s unending love. A protestant practice may actually have developed out of protesting what the Church has taught us, such as not having confessions to a priest when we sin but only in private prayer to God, missing out on God’s grace… And then on the other hand, a pagan practice could be something you wouldn’t want to adopt because of its going against God and being evil. A protestant practice adopted by Catholic churches recently is Vacation Bible School, but that practice does not change the tradition of the Mass.

Alot of the practices the Church does that were once pagan were Christianized but your question to me is which is worse: pagan or protestant and that would depend on the practice.
I, personally, wouldn’t want to adopt either. I assume most of the pagan ones you are referring to have to do with Christmas, and other holidays.

This post developed out of someone wanting to pray the Our Father with head bowed and hands clasped and someone insisting on handholding. If one wants to raise hands at the Our Father and hold ones hand they need to be considerate of the people near them who want to pray in the traditional manner of a bowed head.

good points. so is it safe for me to assume that we both agree that just because something is Protestant in origin, it doesn’t mean it instantly is offensive to our own faith and therefore if centered in our beliefs properly, we can use it? i was just worried that people will blow something off just because where the practice originated, without taking into account what the worth of the practice itself within our faith.

 

[Stylteralmaldo]

Are you suggesting that those of us who are distracted by such things are somehow not there for God?

I am not suggesting that.

I will say this however: If I go to Mass with the intention to worship my Lord and God and then get distracted by something at Mass that I don’t care for or is innappropriate for the Mass, I have two choices: I can let the distraction detract from the reason I am there: to worship my Lord and my God, or get irritated about it and focus my attention on the improper or inappropriate situation.

In other words the distraction exists regardless, it’s how I react to the distraction that I can control.

I prefer to not hold hands during the Lord’s prayer. When others around me reach out to hold my hand, it can be a distraction. But I don’t allow the distraction to get in the way of the reason I am there, which is to worship my Lord and my God. The worship experience is lessened for me I admit because others around me sometimes insist on holding hands, but I see it as an opportunity to offer the distraction to God.

 

[archangel04]

I work with young men, some do have a misguided idea of what it means to be masculine and holding another guys hand in prayer is one of them.
I acctually find the opposite is true with many young people, some males not withstanding.

As far as the bishops, the atttitude that thay are in error is also misguided. We are called in obediance to them and their teaching. A problem for many Catholics including traditionalist.

Peace,
FAB

First I have yet to see any Bishop that says that we should hold hands during the Lord’s prayer, even liberal ones have not said this to my knowledge. A lot of the “higher-ups” at theVatican discourage this practice, and even from just hearing what our holy father says I am sure he does not approve of it as well. Not wanting to hold another mans hand is not misguided idea on masculinity at all. I don’t like it, not to mention guys sweat a lot, and guess what a lot of girls don’t like it for the same reason. I really do hope that the people you teach about the mass are informed that this practice is “optional” and not required.

The church may not be a democracy, but it is also not a dictatorship.
The practices of the church are developed threefold, The magisteruim, theologians and the layity.
The best example of the Layity guiding the church is with the devotion to Mary. It started and was promoted by the Layity, recognized as a good practice by the theologians and adopted by the magisterium.
If this were not the case, there would not be so many traditionalist on this site trying to bring back the EF of the mass. They would accept the bishops teachings and fade away.
The comments against the practice from theolgians is that it takes the focus away from the kiss of peace which is were unification and reconcilation is to occur. Most comments that I read have little issue with families and small groups holding hands but rightfully object to the priest instructing or requiring the entire congregation to do so.
As far as staying power, that’s yet to be seen. It has spead over the last 40 years and doesn’t seem to be fading as of yet.

Peace,
FAB

**

Now natives have turned mean. When you can’t give a reasonable discussion, you turn to name calling.How sad.

To answer your question, yes I am a man with wife and children. Not only do I believe that you comment is wrong, it is misguided. I have no problem taking the hand of my brother in Christ or even giving him an embrace.
Earlier I indicate that I work in a prison misistry. I take the hands of those men in prayer. It is a sign that I accept them as a child of God, worthy to be loved and that they are loved by God. In doing so it breaks dowm barriors and they understand that they can believe in something greater than themselves.
Human touch can be an extradinary gift to another in need. to bad you want to reduce it down to some base level.

Peace,
FAb

I don’t know who is name calling at all? Your attacking us and saying we are missinformed about our masculinty because we don’t like to hold another guy’s hand. Again all these practices are done outside of mass and I applaud you for what you do, but they have no room during mass. Even if devotion to Mary came from the laity which wasn’t because many other Church fathers and saints thought about this, it’s a devotion and was not put into the Mass. You can’t say the Rosary during the Mass because it’s not part of it.

Mary for many years in the early church was not recongized with the devotion that we have today. I didn’t say that bishops along the way didn’t recogize her importants, just that the devotion we know today comes from the Layity. Praying the rosary after the second vatican council fell off a great deal. It wasn’t the bishops or the theologians that brought it back, but the personal devotion of the faithful.

Peace,
FAB

Last time I checked John Paul II was greatly devoted to the Rosary and talked about it any chance he had, even by making a new decade of mysteries. Mother Theresa was also a huge promotor of the Rosary, this was all after VII.

**

 

[archangel04]

QUOTE=tapinu33;6777087]Vat II in my opinion is responsible for such behaviour. When you relax or change some rules eg taking Our Lord in the hand is now an option but in fact is the norm, taking away alter rails, moving the Tabernacle so much so that when you go into a Church you can’t find Our Lord, (when you enter a Church you should be focused on Our Lord not the Priest) then all these “social” behaviours creep in also.
Bishops and Priests should be addressing these issues and many others like dress code and chatting etc.
In Malta/ Gozo if you enter a church with shorts or a sleeveless t-shirt (man or woman) you are instantly greeted with a large shawl to cover your body as it is grave to show yourself in that way on Sacred ground, or you are asked to leave and return with modest attire.
We should all be on bended knee worshipping Our Lord not chatting and holding hands during prayer, I also see couples with their arms around each other and holding onto each others waists (like lovers).
When you soften the rules its an opening for the devil to enter and take root.
We should all pray for The Holy Father, The Holy Church and The Holy Mass.
Tha’ts you opinion, but again if you read the documents, no where does it say to do some weird practice or other things. One thing though is that it does separate the faithful from the not so faithful. The faithful (even though sinners) should help our fellow brothers and sister come to the light.

Actually, they do so willing and understanding of the practice than many posters here.
To me it’s a perfect example of “blessed are those who are poor in spirit”. These men are much more open to the message of Christ.
Peace,
FAB

Yeah go to Cook county jail in Chicago and see if they want to hold your hand there.

 

[jen_fla]

I agree with you that hand holding during the Our Father is distracting. All I can think about is whether the person next to me has sweaty or clammy hands and when can I let go? I’m sorry I know this sounds immature but I can’t help it. I’d much rather be able to concentrate on the words of the Our Father, which is a really powerful prayer.
Also I agree that this practice seems very Protestant to me and I’m somewhat resentful that it was brought in to begin with. I have nothing against Protestant people, but I love our Catholic faith and the spiritual aspects of the Mass as it is. In general, I can always tell when we sing a Protestant hymn because well, their hymns have kind of a dull, straighforward sound to them. Again, I mean no offense by this but it’s just how I feel.

no where near as immature as my thoughts of doing the wave.

anyway, i completely agree with you.

 

[tapinu33]

no where near as immature as my thoughts of doing the wave.

anyway, i completely agree with you.

now that comment made me belly laugh!!!

 

[jen_fla]

Earlier I indicate that I work in a prison misistry. I take the hands of those men in prayer. It is a sign that I accept them as a child of God, worthy to be loved and that they are loved by God. In doing so it breaks dowm barriors and they understand that they can believe in something greater than themselves.
Human touch can be an extradinary gift to another in need. to bad you want to reduce it down to some base level.

Peace,
FAb

hi fab.

i have a protestant friend who i care about dearly. one day we were out eating and we were talking about someone that needed some prayers so we decided to pray on the spot for the person. i was very happy to pray with her, but then she reached out and grabbed my hand. it is something SO foreign to my culture that i almost started giggling and needless to say i wasn’t too focused on my prayer. i felt really silly and uncomfortable, yet i didn’t say anything because i didn’t want to hurt her feelings. she did not need to hold my hand to show me that she “accepted me as child of God” as that is obvious.

so forgive me for giving some friendly advice, but you might want to take a poll or something and ask these prisoners what their preference is. many men in prison have been molested (some raped) and for all you know the whole thing could be bothering them, but they are quietly enduring the awkwardness because they think that’s the Christian thing to do. i endure it. many others do as well so please don’t assume that by your taking their hand that is what’s needed for them to feel that they are worthy. and also keep in mind that for people with anxiety issues, it goes from uncomfortable to torturous.

that’s all. peace and God bless you for all the good work you do!

 

[jen_fla]

I have stated a truth. Men don’t like hand-holding. Especially with other men.

as a woman i don’t like it either, unless it’s with a sweetheart… or i’m trapped under a bus, bleeding to death and some stranger is trying to comfort me.

 

[jen_fla]

now that comment made me belly laugh!!!

glad to provide some medicine. :tiphat:

 

[FAB]

hi fab.

i have a protestant friend who i care about dearly. one day we were out eating and we were talking about someone that needed some prayers so we decided to pray on the spot for the person. i was very happy to pray with her, but then she reached out and grabbed my hand. it is something SO foreign to my culture that i almost started giggling and needless to say i wasn’t too focused on my prayer. i felt really silly and uncomfortable, yet i didn’t say anything because i didn’t want to hurt her feelings. she did not need to hold my hand to show me that she “accepted me as child of God” as that is obvious.

so forgive me for giving some friendly advice, but you might want to take a poll or something and ask these prisoners what their preference is. many men in prison have been molested (some raped) and for all you know the whole thing could be bothering them, but they are quietly enduring the awkwardness because they think that’s the Christian thing to do. i endure it. many others do as well so please don’t assume that by your taking their hand that is what’s needed for them to feel that they are worthy. and also keep in mind that for people with anxiety issues, it goes from uncomfortable to torturous.

that’s all. peace and God bless you for all the good work you do!

The prisoners I work with have less of phobia about grasping each others hands in prayer than most on this thread. They do it freely. They want to know God and the salvation of Christ.

Peace,
FAB

 

[FAB]

QUOTE=tapinu33;6777087]Vat II in my opinion is responsible for such behaviour. When you relax or change some rules eg taking Our Lord in the hand is now an option but in fact is the norm, taking away alter rails, moving the Tabernacle so much so that when you go into a Church you can’t find Our Lord, (when you enter a Church you should be focused on Our Lord not the Priest) then all these “social” behaviours creep in also.
Bishops and Priests should be addressing these issues and many others like dress code and chatting etc.
In Malta/ Gozo if you enter a church with shorts or a sleeveless t-shirt (man or woman) you are instantly greeted with a large shawl to cover your body as it is grave to show yourself in that way on Sacred ground, or you are asked to leave and return with modest attire.
We should all be on bended knee worshipping Our Lord not chatting and holding hands during prayer, I also see couples with their arms around each other and holding onto each others waists (like lovers).
When you soften the rules its an opening for the devil to enter and take root.
We should all pray for The Holy Father, The Holy Church and The Holy Mass.

Tha’ts you opinion, but again if you read the documents, no where does it say to do some weird practice or other things. One thing though is that it does separate the faithful from the not so faithful. The faithful (even though sinners) should help our fellow brothers and sister come to the light.

I read these type of complaints all the time. I really see a hint of false piety.

Peace,
FAB

 

[Layman]

Knowing God and the Salvation of Christ does not necessitate hand-holding with strangers. Or relatives.

I have an alternative therapy:

Dr. Layman: *“Did you Dad abuse you? Was your Mum cold-hearted to you? Is that why you robbed that convenience store?”
*
Prisoner: “Yes”.

Dr. Layman:* “Horse puckeys! You have a demon! Quit listening to it and PULL YOURSELF TOGETHER!”* [points with stem of pipe]

Dr. Layman: “Next!”.

 

[Layman]

I read these type of complaints all the time. I really see a hint of false piety.

Peace,
FAB

Don’t forget ‘pharisaical’ as well.

 

[paramedicgirl]

Don’t forget ‘pharisaical’ as well.

That is your subjective (and judgemental) opinion.

 

[FAB]

That is your subjective (and judgemental) opinion.

So complaining about how people come to mass, what they wear at mass, and how they what to express their personal devotion, (holding hands at the Lord’s prayer) is not?

 

[Layman]

Actually, I was being sarcastic.

Trad.: “I don’t like [specified] changes to the Mass”
N.O. defender: “Pharisee!”.

It ain’t good reasoning. Arguments about the Mass get turned to arguments about the arguer.

 

[paramedicgirl]

So complaining about how people come to mass, what they wear at mass, and how they what to express their personal devotion, (holding hands at the Lord’s prayer) is not?

Calling someone a Pharisee is a making a judgement. When someone opens a thread to discuss holding hands, they are inviting respones to a discussion.