Holding hands during the Our Father?

[ncjohn]

---

Are we now picking at straws—and calling the documentation irrelevant

I am calling the documentation you keep posting irrelevant to the topic at hand as it was not written to address the topic you keep trying to stretch it to cover.

Show me one document from Rome that supports your view —that we can hold hands.

I will show you the objective reality that it has existed for about 35 years and that Rome has specifically NOT objected to it, even when specifically asked and when specifically answering about another aspect of it. I will show you the USCCB specifically saying “there is no prescribed position for the hands” when the question is specifically asked. Show me one document from anyone in authority at the Vatican that says that the USCCB position is incorrect and has been superceded.

The people who make the decisions have made no statement whatsoever in spite of the outcry that supports your position, nor have they made any statement that contradicts mine.

I’m not going to change your mind, nor do I have any interest in doing so beyond not misleading people into thinking they are doing something illicit. You in turn aren’t going to change my mind or the objective reality short of coming up with an actual relevant document that nobody has been able to produce to date.

As such, I’ll drop out at this point since the points have all pretty much been made, and will just continue to pray for and promote charity and the building up of the Body of Christ rather than the tearing down.

Peace,

 

[Walking_Home]

I am calling the documentation you keep posting irrelevant to the topic at hand as it was not written to address the topic you keep trying to stretch it to cover.

I will show you the objective reality that it has existed for about 35 years and that Rome has specifically NOT objected to it, even when specifically asked and when specifically answering about another aspect of it. I will show you the USCCB specifically saying “there is no prescribed position for the hands” when the question is specifically asked. Show me one document from anyone in authority at the Vatican that says that the USCCB position is incorrect and has been superceded.

The people who make the decisions have made no statement whatsoever in spite of the outcry that supports your position, nor have they made any statement that contradicts mine.

I’m not going to change your mind, nor do I have any interest in doing so beyond not misleading people into thinking they are doing something illicit. You in turn aren’t going to change my mind or the objective reality short of coming up with an actual relevant document that nobody has been able to produce to date.

As such, I’ll drop out at this point since the points have all pretty much been made, and will just continue to pray for and promote charity and the building up of the Body of Christ rather than the tearing down.

Peace,

---

From the thread on Cardinal Arinze’s talk in Detroit.
No hand holding in the GIRM. We keep our hands to ourselves.

Post # 7
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=112178

Quote=netmil(name removed by moderator)
How about his answer to the Holding Hands and Orans question? I loved that he stated what was in the GIRM and basically said, what is there is right. …

 

[ncjohn]

---

From the thread on Cardinal Arinze’s talk in Detroit.
No hand holding in the GIRM. We keep our hands to ourselves.

Post # 7
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=112178

Quote=netmil(name removed by moderator)
How about his answer to the Holding Hands and Orans question? I loved that he stated what was in the GIRM and basically said, what is there is right. …

I’m waiting on the transcript before I say anything definitive. If what is stated is correct, I think your argument falls apart even more.

If he said “what is there is right”, what does that mean? Since there is nothing there regarding the topic, and nothing there regarding any other prescription, I read that as very clearly saying that “there is no prescription”. I cannot think of anything else that “what is there is right” could mean. He certainly would have come out and stated what he thought “right” was if he had an opinion and it was different from what is objectively in existence or he thought the objective reality was “wrong”, or if he thought the GIRM specified a “right”.

And when he supposedly said something about having more important things to worry about, that is a pretty straightforward statement that they know it exists and it isn’t going to be changed because they don’t consider it important.

If you feel like you can spin all of that into something that supports you, go for it I guess. I certainly didn’t see anyone claiming he said anything like “No hand holding in the GIRM. We keep our hands to ourselves.” As I said though, I’ll wait for the transcript. But it sounds mostly as non-committal as the Church has been for the last 35 years.

Peace,

 

[Walking_Home]

I’m waiting on the transcript before I say anything definitive. If what is stated is correct, I think your argument falls apart even more.

If he said “what is there is right”, what does that mean? Since there is nothing there regarding the topic, and nothing there regarding any other prescription, I read that as very clearly saying that “there is no prescription”. I cannot think of anything else that “what is there is right” could mean. He certainly would have come out and stated what he thought “right” was if he had an opinion and it was different from what is objectively in existence or he thought the objective reality was “wrong”, or if he thought the GIRM specified a “right”.

And when he supposedly said something about having more important things to worry about, that is a pretty straightforward statement that they know it exists and it isn’t going to be changed because they don’t consider it important.

If you feel like you can spin all of that into something that supports you, go for it I guess. I certainly didn’t see anyone claiming he said anything like “No hand holding in the GIRM. We keep our hands to ourselves.” As I said though, I’ll wait for the transcript. But it sounds mostly as non-committal as the Church has been for the last 35 years.

Peace,

---

ncjohn----I have provide more than enough to back up my position.

You—have not----other then–the GIRM is silent. Whether you accept it or not–that is up to you—it is on your shoulders.

The follow proves that ----the Church has not been–uncommittal. She has been trying—but our own are working against Her–both laity and clerics.

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccdds/documents/rc_con_ccdds_doc_20040423_redemptionis-sacramentum_en.html#Chapter%20III

[27.] As early as the year 1970, the Apostolic See announced the cessation of all experimentation as regards the celebration of Holy Mass[62] and reiterated the same in 1988.[63] Accordingly, individual Bishops and their Conferences do not have the faculty to permit experimentation with liturgical texts or the other matters that are prescribed in the liturgical books. In order to carry out experimentation of this kind in the future, the permission of the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments is required. It must be in writing, and it is to be requested by the Conference of Bishops. In fact, it will not be granted without serious reason. As regards projects of inculturation in liturgical matters, the particular norms that have been established are strictly and comprehensively to be observed.[64]

 

[netmilsmom]

**Liturgical Norms
Of the Diocese of Charlotte
**
General Norms…
Communion
**53. Holding hands during the Our Father is not found in the Order of the Mass.

**This bears repeating. Unlike holding a child or leaning, this is a specific document stating that holding hands is not in the Order of the Mass.
Also unlike holding a child or leaning, holding hands for the Our Father is part of the mass, not because one is at mass.

Otherwise, why not hold hands at the Gospel? Or the consecration? Or the Agnus Dei?

 

[estesbob]

Liturgical Norms

Of the Diocese of Charlotte

General Norms…
Communion
53. Holding hands during the Our Father is not found in the Order of the Mass.

This bears repeating. Unlike holding a child or leaning, this is a specific document stating that holding hands is not in the Order of the Mass.
Also unlike holding a child or leaning, holding hands for the Our Father is part of the mass, not because one is at mass.

Otherwise, why not hold hands at the Gospel? Or the consecration? Or the Agnus Dei?

Well my wife and hold hands for most of the Mass…

 

[blackrobe]

I was hoping to find an online community of believers who were a little more open minded. The sheer negativity and ferocity of the attacks, focused on my posting, leave me a bit confused. So many people think they have all the answers that they are closed to alternative ideas. Anything that leads a person to Christ is good.

Holding hands during the Our Father is personal choice. Any good discussion must recognize this. By the intensity of the responses it is clear that prople are afraid. If your faith is strong you need not fear an open discussion of mass celebrations practices that are alternative. If this is a representation of the evangilization technique currently practiced, it leaves a lot to be desired. If I was looking to better understand Catholicism I might believe that the Church (people) was a bit angry.

I pray that the Holy Spirit whisper into our ears and that we listen to the message. We can turn that intensity into an evangilization force to be reckoned with. Fear can be forced out, and tolerance for opposing opinions, in matters of personal choice, can be increased.

Again, my opinion, still worth every penny, and based on twenty-some years of participating in online fora:

1. Generally, one who opens a thread on a controversial topic is not seeking mere discussion. To one degree or another, he is seeking affirmation for a position. Insofar as his position is affirmed he will praise the wonderful exchange of ideas taking place and feel all warm and fuzzy about the contributors.
2. To the extent that his position is not supported he will characterize his critics as close-minded and fearful of new ideas. He will interpret any disagreement with his position as a personal attack and sanctimoniously conclude that no real discussion is possible with such people, often expressing sympathy for their benighted condition and hope that they will eventually be blessed with his wisdom and insight.
3. As for the question at hand, one may stand on his left foot, pat his head, and rub his tummy if one’s bishop permits it. The freedom to do a thing does not imply an obligation on others to share one’s enthusiasm.
4. Anyone who finds the responses in this discussion intemperate ought to take a look at how the St. Jerome could respond to assertions with which he disagreed.

JSA

 

[A2SciTeach]

What truly amazes me is the number of times this thread appears. Starting with the poll numbers, it’s obvious that the majority of people on this forum don’t hold hands or raise their arms up during the Our Father. It’s obviously a choice people are making when they choose to hold another person’s hand or choose to raise up their arms. I choose to do neither - I really don’t care what somebody else is doing - I’m not there to please them or to be distracted by them, period.

 

[netmilsmom]

Well my wife and hold hands for most of the Mass…

Hey Bob!

I’m sure you hold hands out of mass too!

 

[prv]

Only generally with family members and friends and with strangers only if I am not in a position where I can refuse w/o causing a serious
rukus (sp?).

 

[estesbob]

Hey Bob!

I’m sure you hold hands out of mass too!

Yes!

 

[ncjohn]

ncjohn----I have provide more than enough to back up my position.

I’m sure in your mind you have. But the fact of the matter is that the Church has given no indication whatsoever that it agrees with you. You have yet to show a single document in which the Vatican specifically addresses the issue in a way that agrees with what you say, in spite of all the convolutions of trying to make unrelated and irrelevant documents say something they were never meant to discuss.

This latest posting is yet another in the line of irrelevant:

… individual Bishops and their Conferences do not have the faculty to permit experimentation with **liturgical texts or the other matters that are prescribed **in the liturgical books…

There is nothing in this issue that deals with liturgical texts. And the issue is precisely that nothing is prescribed so the “other matters that are prescribed” is totally irrelevant.

The only thing it takes to show that it is licit is the fact that the body to whom the authority has been delegated says “no position is prescribed” in the face of the specific question. Short of a Vatican document overruling that, it is the authoritative statement. You don’t get to prescribe when the conference says there is no prescription.

I’m done here as it is just the same stuff being regurgitated at this point.

Peace,

 

[Michael_Welter]

I’ve been observing this spirited discussion, and would like to make an important observation.

The Church, and the Church alone, has the authority to interpret Church teaching. I see many people here trying to interpret Church teaching, in a way that supports their personal preference. But we don’t have the authority to do that. If your bishop says not to hold hands during the Our Father, then please be obedient. My Bishop allows it, as do most Bishops in the US.

BTW, since holding hands during the Our Father has been common for 35 years, isn’t this now a tradition? It may be the longest standing tradition for the posture during the Our Father since the congregation began praying the Our Father along with the priest.

 

[prv]

I must reiterate, as I’ve already done in another thread, that no one, and that means NO ONE is compelled to hold hands during the Our Father. Until the GIRM is changed to require in the positive that one needs to hold hands, then one cannot be compelled to hold hands. What the bishop permits is another thing entirely. I’m not sure he has the authority to compel this practice on us all until the GIRM officially is changed (i.e., not by what CAF members say).

 

[prv]

What truly amazes me is the number of times this thread appears. Starting with the poll numbers, it’s obvious that the majority of people on this forum don’t hold hands or raise their arms up during the Our Father. It’s obviously a choice people are making when they choose to hold another person’s hand or choose to raise up their arms. I choose to do neither - I really don’t care what somebody else is doing - I’m not there to please them or to be distracted by them, period.

What the polls say and what actually happens in churches here in the U.S. is entirely different.

 

[lrs]

Let’s See

First and Foremost, I become alarmed by how easily the term Heretic and accusations of destroying the church are thrown around on this forum.
The poster, St Jerome, is simply taking the “made in the likeness and image of God” very seriously. No we are Not God, we are not the Priest consecrating the host, but we are parishoners striving every day to become better and better stewards for the love of God. We must be active participants in the Celebration of the Mass.

Secondly, I cringe when ever I hear a poster “bash” a Priest. This is disrespectful and rude. It cheapens the Office of Ordination. So many comment on this renegade priest or that one taking matters into their own hands on these threads. Trust that the Will of God guides this church. Jesus has never abandoned us. If a priest, by either direction of a bishop, or is a tradition in the diocese of everyone to hold hands during the Our Father, then where is the harm in that? I get the sense that so many operate out of Fear. Fear that their Faith is getting watered down, Fear that a new gesture may cause a spiritual loss. I am brought back to the example of only some take Communion on the Tongue, while others in their hand. Does not Jesus enter us in both ways? There is room for Holding of Hands, Looking deep in someone’s eyes, touching their heart, and saying Peace Be With You! I think of the elderly in church, those who are lonely, they so count on this connection. It is really not about some trying to do it their own way. To use the cliche’ What Would Jesus Do?.

I realize that some may feel personally uncomfortable touching the hand of someone else, but we are there to worship and praise God, pray for one another and pray for ourselves. We come together as one. We are brought out of our brokeness, we are united together. It is extremely powerful. The Holy Spirit alive in the Word, present among us, sending us out into the world as Stewards of the message. Recognizing Christ in one another. We are brought to be One, one in Communion with Christ, on in Communion with everyone else in the Community. “One Bread, One Body, One Lord, of all. And we though many throughout the Earth, we are One Body in this One Lord” This is the message I hear in Church. We are made one in Communion! To hold or shake a hand is walking the Talk.

Blessings and Peace,
Lisa

 

[prv]

Let’s See

First and Foremost, I become alarmed by how easily the term Heretic and accusations of destroying the church are thrown around on this forum.
The poster, St Jerome, is simply taking the “made in the likeness and image of God” very seriously. No we are Not God, we are not the Priest consecrating the host, but we are parishoners striving every day to become better and better stewards for the love of God. We must be active participants in the Celebration of the Mass.

Secondly, I cringe when ever I hear a poster “bash” a Priest. This is disrespectful and rude. It cheapens the Office of Ordination. So many comment on this renegade priest or that one taking matters into their own hands on these threads. Trust that the Will of God guides this church. Jesus has never abandoned us. If a priest, by either direction of a bishop, or is a tradition in the diocese of everyone to hold hands during the Our Father, then where is the harm in that? I get the sense that so many operate out of Fear. Fear that their Faith is getting watered down, Fear that a new gesture may cause a spiritual loss. I am brought back to the example of only some take Communion on the Tongue, while others in their hand. Does not Jesus enter us in both ways? There is room for Holding of Hands, Looking deep in someone’s eyes, touching their heart, and saying Peace Be With You! I think of the elderly in church, those who are lonely, they so count on this connection. It is really not about some trying to do it their own way. To use the cliche’ What Would Jesus Do?.

I realize that some may feel personally uncomfortable touching the hand of someone else, but we are there to worship and praise God, pray for one another and pray for ourselves. We come together as one. We are brought out of our brokeness, we are united together. It is extremely powerful. The Holy Spirit alive in the Word, present among us, sending us out into the world as Stewards of the message. Recognizing Christ in one another. We are brought to be One, one in Communion with Christ, on in Communion with everyone else in the Community. “One Bread, One Body, One Lord, of all. And we though many throughout the Earth, we are One Body in this One Lord” This is the message I hear in Church. We are made one in Communion! To hold or shake a hand is walking the Talk.

Blessings and Peace,
Lisa

No, I don’t agree. Holding hands has nothing to do with walking the talk other than people’s personal preferences. Shaking hands is an entirely different matter, it shows true peace with your neighbors when you actually face them and tell them “Peace be with you.” Just habitually holding hands w/o thinking does nothing, at least when I attend, to enhance my mind on either God or my neighbor.
There may be legitimate reasons why people don’t hold hands, like reduced immune response. Whatever the case, it is absolutely and positively not our place to criticize them for their choice.

Now, as for bashing per se a cleric, I agree that it shouldn’t be done especially due to their reception of Holy Orders. Instead, one should bring their concerns to them or to their superiors for correction. Now, as for the other side, let them hold hands as long as the GIRM still permits it. But it should not be forced on anyone.

 

[prv]

As for “What would Jesus Do,” well, that can be thrown around anyway you like it. I want to say that he would respect people’s right to keep to themselves.

 

[netmilsmom]

The Church, and the Church alone, has the authority to interpret Church teaching. I see many people here trying to interpret Church teaching, in a way that supports their personal preference. But we don’t have the authority to do that. If your bishop says not to hold hands during the Our Father, then please be obedient. My Bishop allows it, as do most Bishops in the US.

Your Bishop may allow handholding, but you’d be hard pressed to find many diocese that openly encourage it. In fact most, such as Cleveland (where Bishop Pilla was not the height of tradition) states on their website that handholding should be discouraged. I’d have to see a reference to “most”.

BTW, since holding hands during the Our Father has been common for 35 years, isn’t this now a tradition? It may be the longest standing tradition for the posture during the Our Father since the congregation began praying the Our Father along with the priest.

Thirty five years? That’s a push. To say that some parishes have done this for thiry five years is reasonable but the majority of parishes started this in the late 90’s. I never saw handholding in my parish until I moved to Detroit in 1997. Along that line, to say the that posture of handholding, which was not used in the 1970 year history of the Catholic Church, and was pushed by certain lay ministers, should now be taken as “tradition” is surely abstact.

We have a long and rich history. We don’t need to borrow any from another sect or section of society.
I can tell you that when I went to a CYO event as a youth, we folded our hands. When I went to an event sponsored by any non-Catholic church, we held hands to pray.

 

[netmilsmom]

If a priest, by either direction of a bishop, or is a tradition in the diocese of everyone to hold hands during the Our Father, then where is the harm in that? I get the sense that so many operate out of Fear. Fear that their Faith is getting watered down, Fear that a new gesture may cause a spiritual loss. I am brought back to the example of only some take Communion on the Tongue, while others in their hand. Does not Jesus enter us in both ways? There is room for Holding of Hands, Looking deep in someone’s eyes, touching their heart, and saying Peace Be With You! I think of the elderly in church, those who are lonely, they so count on this connection. It is really not about some trying to do it their own way. To use the cliche’ What Would Jesus Do?.

When I spoke to the seniors at my past “Catholic Community”, they hated the handholding. Some with arthritic hands or shoulders had to physical pain from the “connection”. It means squat to hold a senior’s hand when they are so often abandoned outside of mass.
What would Jesus do? He would repect the personal space of those lonely people and go spend some time with them at the Senior Community. How many of us hold hands then not give them a thought for the rest of the week?

I realize that some may feel personally uncomfortable touching the hand of someone else, but we are there to worship and praise God, pray for one another and pray for ourselves. We come together as one. We are brought out of our brokeness, we are united together. It is extremely powerful. The Holy Spirit alive in the Word, present among us, sending us out into the world as Stewards of the message. Recognizing Christ in one another. We are brought to be One, one in Communion with Christ, on in Communion with everyone else in the Community. “One Bread, One Body, One Lord, of all. And we though many throughout the Earth, we are One Body in this One Lord” This is the message I hear in Church. We are made one in Communion! To hold or shake a hand is walking the Talk.

Well this Bishop in St. Louis disagrees with you
Is holding hands during the Lord’s Prayer allowed or encouraged?
BCL Newsletter, October-November 1989
No. The community’s corporate act of receiving communion is the primary symbol of unity with Christ and the Church. The Sign of Peace immediately preceding the reception of Communion is a liturgical rite that should not be minimized or duplicated in any way. A separate but related issue is the situation of individuals who for personal reasons feel uncomfortable with the practice of holding hands. In this case those individuals feel increasingly excluded from the worshipping community. Sensitivity is needed to include all and draw all to the true symbol of unity.

And perhaps you have forgotten that we do not need to physically touch to receive spiritual benefit.

Luke 8:43 And a woman having an issue of blood twelve years, which had spent all her living upon physicians, neither could be healed of any,

Luke 8:44 Came behind him, and touched the border of his garment: and immediately her issue of blood stanched.

I’m not there to get some “community” on me. I’m there to worship Our Lord with the other souls of my parish. I don’t have to touch anyone to do it.