Holding Hands During the Our Father

[benedictgal]

We never held hands in our Protestant Church but I don’t mind it too much. Our parish does it and our bishop hasn’t said anything about it. He is a good Bishop. I see some merit it in so it’s’ fine by me. But if they did away with it I’d be fine as well.

I am a bit concerned that you would tell children it is discourage by the Church. Where in the Church does it say this? Also, is your parish holding hands? I wouldn’t be happy if my daughters CCD teacher told her it wasn’t ok but then she comes to Mass and everyone is doing it. You are putting children in a difficult conflicting spot when you do this.

Opinions off of EWTN or an apologist is not Church authority. Why not wait to find out what your Bishop in your diocese says and the Vatican before giving children your personal opinion?

I wish this debate with get resolved.

On the flip side of it, the Church has not said that it is all fine and dandy to do so. A parent has the right to educate his child in the Faith. Just because the parish is holding hands during the Pater Noster doesn’t necessarily make it right. If I had children, I would educate them on the norms and rubrics and tell them not to base themselves on someone’s idiosyncracies when it comes to the Mass. It clearly should never be a “monkey see, monkey do,” attitude.

 

[benedictgal]

I do not hold hands at the Lord’s Prayer. I hold them clasped together in prayer. However, I don’t know what is happening in your parishes, but here it is a sight to behold and I don’t know how this happened. The Instructions tell the priest to join his hands together for the Doxology. For some strange reason, I have seen so many people reach their arms higher to the skies for the Doxology. I never understood that.

Richard

It seems more like the posture that the residents of Whooville took when they were standing in front of the Christmas Tree (and the empty space after the Grinch stole everything) holding hands, singing and then lifting their joined hands to the air. It is also something that the modern Druids do at Stonehenge during the solstaces. It’s very strange, indeed.

 

[Stratiotes]

Furthermore, ask the person in the pews why hands are held during the Pater Noster and they will probably tell you that they have no idea.

I would venture to guess that is true of a lot of practices and the majority of people. It would be true of most on the opposite side of the fence if we asked why they do not .

I am not pro/con on it, I figure it acceptable either way. However, there is indeed, I think, sufficient evidence in scripture that it is a mandate to do so and not an option:

:bible1: “I will therefore that men pray in every place, lifting up pure hands, without anger and contention.” - I Tim 2:8

The practice is not just about community either:
:bible1: "Josue did as Moses had spoken, and he fought against Amalec; but Moses, and Aaron, and Hur went up upon the top of the hill. And when Moses lifted up his hands, Israel overcame: but if he let them down a little, Amalec overcame. And Moses’ hands were heavy: so they took a stone, and put under him, and he sat on it: and Aaron and Hur stayed up his hands on both sides. And it came to pass that his hands were not weary until sunset. " - Exodus 17:10-12

For me, it is not a matter of feeling closer as a community in a horizontal sense at all. It is an obedience to a custom that seems to predate even Trent…or Nicea for that matter. So, perhaps, it is the real conservatives that are raising their hands.

 

[benedictgal]

I would venture to guess that is true of a lot of practices and the majority of people. It would be true of most on the opposite side of the fence if we asked why they do not .

I am not pro/con on it, I figure it acceptable either way. However, there is indeed, I think, sufficient evidence in scripture that it is a mandate to do so and not an option:

:bible1: “I will therefore that men pray in every place, lifting up pure hands, without anger and contention.” - I Tim 2:8

The practice is not just about community either:
:bible1: "Josue did as Moses had spoken, and he fought against Amalec; but Moses, and Aaron, and Hur went up upon the top of the hill. And when Moses lifted up his hands, Israel overcame: but if he let them down a little, Amalec overcame. And Moses’ hands were heavy: so they took a stone, and put under him, and he sat on it: and Aaron and Hur stayed up his hands on both sides. And it came to pass that his hands were not weary until sunset. " - Exodus 17:10-12

For me, it is not a matter of feeling closer as a community in a horizontal sense at all. It is an obedience to a custom that seems to predate even Trent…or Nicea for that matter. So, perhaps, it is the real conservatives that are raising their hands.

No one is debating the orans posture, which is what you describe (bold highlights are mine) in your post. The bone of contention is the actual hand-holding during the Pater Noster. I am not against the orans posture. In fact, I would love to take that posture, but, the minute I would do that, someone will more than likely manhandle me and grab my hands on either side. Now the only reason why Moses’ hands were held was because he couldn’t sustain the very length (stretching into several hours) battle. We are not in that situation, at all, in the Mass.

As far as hand-holding during the Pater Noster is concerned, that is not a custom that has any precedent (not even in the ancient Church), nor does it find anything remotely similar to it in Ancient Israel (of course, without reciting the Pater Noster–substitute some other prayer).

 

[Stratiotes]

I understand about the hand-holding but that too is there in the ministers hold Moses’ hands up - we do the same with one another. Prayer is worship - it is also battle. And we support each other as the saints who have gone before support us in that battle. So, I think more than the posture is implied.

I certainly understand how it can be annoying if you do not want to hold hands and your neighbor assumes you do. Those of us who assume that posture should be sensitive to others in not doing so. In our family (we have 4 grown kids) we all do together but do not grab the neighbors’ unless they choose to take our hands. Sometimes the kids bring friends and then we include those friends but never do we reach out for others. If others want to join the chain, its their choice. Personally, I think I have too much to worry about in my own attitude to worry about everybody else.

And, as for distractions, sometimes the screaming baby or the really cute lass can distract me - but I would not ban babies and pretty girls from attending mass . Jesus meets us in the real world and the real world is full of distractions. The heaven of Revelation is filled with noise and distractions abound yet the eucharist is still center-stage amidst it all. I think that is part of the profound nature of the mass - it is there in the ordinary everyday distractions of others. Those distractions do not have to be inhibitors to worship, they can be profound reminders that this real world is only a part of something greater and more profound in our midst. Whether the rest of the world notices or not does not alter the significance of what we experience in the mass.

One thing that distracts me more than any other as a convert, (and again, I have enough to worry about in myself) is the attitude of “cradle-catholics” who seem to have forgotten that Jesus is really being made present. I read something from Mike Aquilina about how he told his then Lutheran wife about what catholics believe and she laughed and said, “if you really believed that you would be there every day!” At the time he was not going to mass at all. Since becoming catholic, I have attended every mass that I have been able to attend and I cannot figure out all these catholics who complain that the “have to go” every week. Never mind whether they want to hold hands or not! That seems pretty minor in the grand scheme of things and it really makes me wonder what the heck is wrong with us that we would nit-pick about things like that when we have people (including priests!) who do not, apparently, even believe in the real presence.

No offense to those of you who worry about holding hands - I admire your zealousness and reverence. Please do not think otherwise. I wish to be reverent as well and I hope, with my reverence, to encourage reverence in others. But, at the same time, my sense of what is reverent may not exactly match yours or Joe Sixties’ and I hope we can accept that in each other. Just because my family holds hands does not in any way mean we are less reverent than those who fold their hands - and it does not mean that we do not have good reason to do so. As I said, I think it could be seen as a mandate from scripture. But I will not require that everybody practice the same reverence that I feel in my conscience either-charity above all. If the bishop tells us to stop holding hands, then I will obey - but I’ll probably voice my opinion to him that I think he’s making a mistake.

OK, let me step off the soap box now and let somebody else rant on this subject. I said my bit and I really hope it doesn’t offend. I’m going to try to bow out of this discussion.

 

[Biblioassistant]

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. I am not a bit unfriendly, but I hate holding hands at Mass. I hate it with the white hot hate of a thousand blazing suns.

 

[anamchara]

On the flip side of it, the Church has not said that it is all fine and dandy to do so. A parent has the right to educate his child in the Faith. Just because the parish is holding hands during the Pater Noster doesn’t necessarily make it right. If I had children, I would educate them on the norms and rubrics and tell them not to base themselves on someone’s idiosyncracies when it comes to the Mass. It clearly should never be a “monkey see, monkey do,” attitude.

The fact that they haven’t said anything probably means it’s not a big deal. I get tired of the argument. No where does it say we can’t do this.So it becomes a personal opinion which you shouldn’t force on others. When you are teaching CCD, you are not just teaching your own child, you are teaching other peoples children. It’s a bad idea to give your personal opinions to children about the Church when teaching them. You teach from the leaders guide which the DRE has given you and the priest has approved. You don’t “teach” about what you think the Church should be doing and not doing in the liturgy. You can teach objectively about the Mass and the different parts, the importance of each one but personal opinion about what your priest or Bishop is or isn’t doing, is opinions. Once again, you took what I said and turned in into something completely different. I was talking about teaching other children not just your own.

Put it this way benedict, if your child’s teacher started teaching the kids that they should be hold hands during the Lords prayer even though your Church wasn’t even doing it, you would have a hissy fit.

 

[ac_claire]

Hand-holding during the Pater Noster is not a local custom. It is something that was based on the idiosyncracies and personal tastes of the group that started it. Furthermore, it places an undue emphasis on the community, as if the faithful are the actors in this as opposed to God the Father. It is too much of a horizontal action that does not take the vertical into account. I agree with the assertions that the OP from Relevent Radio. There is just no basis for doing this. Furthermore, ask the person in the pews why hands are held during the Pater Noster and they will probably tell you that they have no idea.

…because it is a local custom. Only it’s local to almost every parish I’ve been to in the last 20 years. There just isn’t anything wrong with it. As I’ve written before, nobody should be grabbing anyone’s hand. I’ve never seen this agressive hand-grabbing phenomenon that some people keep mentioning. I’m sure it has happened because I don’t think y’all would lie or exaggerate; but I’m also sure it’s not in any way common.

I don’t know who or what started the practice. Most parishes who do it now probably do it it because they did it at their last parish, etc. I don’t know about the druids at stonehendge. That’s bringing a whole 'nother level of ridiculous to this arguement.

How does holding hands for 1-2 minujtes during the Our Father somehow take the focus off God? Or put undue emphasis on community?

 

[Thekla]

People are missing out on the best part of the hand-holding during the Our Father; it’s the hand squeeze at the end.

Now I grew up in a family of men who grimaced every time they had to turn to a stranger and offer some sign of peace. So the hand-holding thing forced my father to cling to the end of the pew like it was a life preserver. My mother and I were always forced ahead of everyone so that we were the ones to make contact with strangers. I’ve asked my husband about this, and he thinks that some of the guys are afraid they might have to hold hands with another guy.

Anyways, I don’t remember when it started, but after the hand-holding, right before you put your hands down, it’s become the norm to give a couple of hand squeezes.

 

[TMGallyon85]

If anybody ever watches those sunday morning Televengelist shows or a Christian rock revival etc, you see people holding hands and raising their hands up with their heads tilted up with eyes closed. It looks like something you see on Benny Hinn. Somebody made mention of the Orans position. I would like to know how that started up again. Even when I was young in the 1990’s, my parish never held hands or did the orans position. It seems to have just appeared from thin air. Either way, the rubrixs of the mass do not mention either posture, so we should not add to the mass and insert them in. We should stick to what the Rubrics say should be done. If not mentioned, do no add it in. I was taugh in School to hold my hands flat together facing up and you fold your thumbs like a cross.

 

[benedictgal]

You don’t “teach” about what you think the Church should be doing and not doing in the liturgy. You can teach objectively about the Mass and the different parts, the importance of each one but personal opinion about what your priest or Bishop is or isn’t doing, is opinions. Once again, you took what I said and turned in into something completely different. I was talking about teaching other children not just your own.

Put it this way benedict, if your child’s teacher started teaching the kids that they should be hold hands during the Lords prayer even though your Church wasn’t even doing it, you would have a hissy fit.

I would not allow my child to hold hands during the Pater Noster simply because this gesture is based on someone’s idiosyncracies and personal taste. This gesture is something that someone tacked on to the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

We don’t need to hold hands like the residents of Whooville when we pray. We are assembled as the People of God in the Mass, but, our unity takes on a deeper meaning, far more penetrating than a rather silly gesture would suggest. We don’t need to hold hands to be united. We are already united because we are members of Christ’s Body, the Church. Meaningless gestures such as hand-holding during the Pater Noster are useless and trite.

 

[ac_claire]

No one is debating the orans posture, which is what you describe (bold highlights are mine) in your post. The bone of contention is the actual hand-holding during the Pater Noster. I am not against the orans posture. In fact, I would love to take that posture, but, the minute I would do that, someone will more than likely manhandle me and grab my hands on either side.

Now I am confused about this.
I thought the orans posture was the real problematic one…
Let’s put aside the hand-holding debate for a sec. I usually do take a hand if one is offered to me. If not, or I’m at the end of the pew, I used to hold my hands up like you’re describing. A lot of people do that. But I’ve read several arguments against it on this forum- mainly that the orans position is for the priest only.

So…thanks to CAF, I stopped doing it!
Nowadays if I don’t join hands w/ the person next to me I’ll just clasp them in front of me. Did I take this advice wrong?

 

[Sarabande]

I never thought about it this way before, but it came up in my head while reading another thread regarding the use of a unity candle for wedding masses. In a way, although I don’t believe it hurts anyone when people hold hands, (I personally don’t do it and don’t like doing it, but I don’t care if others take part) I think of hand-holding as a practice similar to the use of the unity candle. There is nothing really Catholic about the unity candle AND it is really just a redundant symbol of unity (even though we did it at our wedding - now we would not have done it). But some people would claim they believe the unity candle shows unity between the couple, the families and God. And people do get tied in knots when you explain to them that is no longer acceptable in our archdiocese.

Hand-holding is also sort of a redundant way of showing unity within the congregation. It’s a relatively new practice (at least withing the last 40 years I guess) and not really part of the mass and is not really needed. It was added by those who want to feel more unity with each other. I mean no offense to those do like holding hands - like I said, I don’t care when I see others holding hands. I don’t think it will stop, either, in some parishes unless there is an actual statement saying it is no longer permitted or not encouraged - sort of how they’ve basically gotten rid of the unity candle ceremony in most of our diocese.

I see less and less hand holding in my diocese up north, but I saw it a lot in Florida.

 

[benedictgal]

Now I am confused about this.
I thought the orans posture was the real problematic one…
Let’s put aside the hand-holding debate for a sec. I usually do take a hand if one is offered to me. If not, or I’m at the end of the pew, I used to hold my hands up like you’re describing. A lot of people do that. But I’ve read several arguments against it on this forum- mainly that the orans position is for the priest only.

So…thanks to CAF, I stopped doing it!
Nowadays if I don’t join hands w/ the person next to me I’ll just clasp them in front of me. Did I take this advice wrong?

The orans posture is when you position your hands like the priest does during the Pater Noster, almost like when you were a kid and you told your mom you loved her “this much” and your arms were open. That’s the orans posture (although, the wing span is not that wide).

I don’t have my Spirit of the Liturgy book by Pope Benedict, but the Holy Father says that the orans posture for the Pater Noster is acceptable.

The only problem is that when someone is praying in the orans posture, someone will more than likely grab your hand and you are no longer in the orans, but in something else.

I hope this helps.

 

[JimG]

Here is a link to a previous question in the Ask an Apologist forum about the orans posture.

 

[Irish_Saints]

Based on anecdotal evidence, I would conclude that both of these non-standard practices likely infused themselves into the liturgy via the Charismatic Renewal Movement (or one of it’s offshoots.) Having spent many a year in Protestant Pentecostal communities, both the orans position and hand-holding was fairly commonplace. As I began to attend Mass, I noticed a number of folks in the congregation performing these familiar yet decidedly non-comformist actions (from the Catholic standpoint, that is.)

I had the misfortune of walking in on a “Pentecost Revival” meeting one Thursday evening at the Church. It was the list of usual suspects in attendance at this meeting; the same folks who typically would initiate the hand-holding (with the lifting of the joined hands flourish during the post-prayer doxology “For thine is the kingdom…etc.”]) and the orans posture (which usually parroted the priest’s own blessings AND which I noticed more often than not that it was typically a handful of women taking particular relish in the practice.)

After asking around a bit, it was confirmed by our DRE and a few others that it was the previous priest and a handful of folks who threw themselves headlong into the “Renewal Movement” who slowly insinuated these practices into the liturgy. Shortly after I left that parish, I did hear that the new priest had diplomatically relocated the “Pentecost Revival” group to another parish. Not surprisingly, it was moved to the parish belonging to the original priest who brought in the “Renewal Movement.”

If it sounds as if this whole phenomenon pushes my buttons, it’s because it does. I’ll create a separate thread later this week as to why, but suffice to say, I do not and will not hold hands, assume priestly postures, or add anything to the mass that is not either explicitly required or implicitly allowed in the rubrics. For me, this means either folding my hands in prayer or tucking them tightly in my pockets. If someone tugs on my sleeve for my hand, I quietly and politely say, “No thank you.” and leave it at that. I’m sure it’s probably miffed a few armchair liturgists, but I’m at Mass to worship God and partake in the once-for-all sacrifice of the altar, not to get all glad-handy with my neighbors.

What’s next…holding up lit BIC lighters during the Agnus Dei?

 

[Lepanto]

The fact that they haven’t said anything probably means it’s not a big deal. I get tired of the argument. No where does it say we can’t do this.

Well, why stop at hand-holding then? Why not full-scale make-out sessions? We haven’t been told we can’t make-out during Mass either.

Come on. We’re not children. Our behavior in Church shouldn’t have to be micro-managed and micro-legislated. Common sense and the rubrics are what determine proper gestures.

 

[anamchara]

Well, why stop at hand-holding then? Why not full-scale make-out sessions? We haven’t been told we can’t make-out during Mass either.

That is a ridiculous leap and you know it. This same lame argument goes on all the time in here.

Come on. We’re not children. Our behavior in Church shouldn’t have to be micro-managed and micro-legislated.

Exactly, so why not trust people? Let them hold hands if they want. Why not trust their focus is on God and that it’s not a distraction. This forum is filled with micro-managers who think they speak for the Pope I haven’t seen it lead to anything expect arguments in here. Admit it’s not for you and don’t do it. But stop acting like it’s not allowed when one has said it isn’t yet.

 

[ac_claire]

…I’m at Mass to worship God and partake in the once-for-all sacrifice of the altar, not to get all glad-handy with my neighbors.

What’s next…holding up lit BIC lighters during the Agnus Dei?

Well, why stop at hand-holding then? Why not full-scale make-out sessions? We haven’t been told we can’t make-out during Mass either.

This isn’t cool. Do you really want to take this discussion to it’s most ridiculous, irrelevant conclusions, or should we focus on the matter at hand? (No pun int.) Because if you really want to play that way, lets talk about the poster a few pages back who refuses to even do the sign of peace- part of the liturgy- because any ackowledgement whatsoever of the people sitting next to her will take her focus from God.

This is, of course, ludicrous, and so are the conclusions some of you are making. I am talking ONLY about the practice of joining hands during the Our Father prayer at mass. Period. Don’t throw in a bunch of other stuff and accuse me of advocating for that, too. Please don’t accuse me of denying the Sacrifice if I admit that I enjoy the fellowship of the mass and the Lord’s Supper. Don’t tell me I’m putting community before God because I didn’t do that, and you’re only weakening the legitimate use of that accusation.

The Church acknowledges that it’s common among the laity to join hands for the Our Father. The practice would have been condemned if it was truly worthy of condemnation. It’s a very brief, unofficial, optional outward sign of fellowhsip that the congregation can take part in or opt out of.

Someone, somewhere had to introduce the practice to the mass. But I don’t see it as a a “meaningless addition” -and I think I speak for a lot of people in my age group- because it’s always been done, as far back as I can remember (20+ years) and in various parishes in 3 states. No, I am not saying that just because something is a common practice, that makes it right. I am saying that choosing to hold your neighbor’s hand during this short prayer is right because there’s nothing wrong with it.

If you don’t like it, just don’t think twice about it!

 

[Irish_Saints]

This isn’t cool. Do you really want to take this discussion to it’s most ridiculous, irrelevant conclusions, or should we focus on the matter at hand? (No pun int.) Because if you really want to play that way, lets talk about the poster a few pages back who refuses to even do the sign of peace- part of the liturgy- because any ackowledgement whatsoever of the people sitting next to her will take her focus from God.

Funny you should mention this. First off, I see WAAAAY too many instances where the sign of peace is WAAAAAY overdone. I cite the following:

The theme of the rite of peace (or “kiss of peace”) is dealt with in several places in the General Instruction of the Roman Missal. While giving an overall description of the rites of Mass, it says in No. 82:

"The Rite of Peace follows, by which the Church asks for peace and unity for herself and for the whole human family, and the faithful express to each other their ecclesial communion and mutual charity before communicating in the Sacrament.

“As for the sign of peace to be given, the manner is to be established by Conferences of Bishops in accordance with the culture and customs of the peoples. It is, however, appropriate that each person offer the sign of peace only to those who are nearest and in a sober manner.”

I’d hate to tell you how many times I’ve seen people walk all over the sanctuary to exchange the sign of peace. It looked more like they were campaigning for political office! According to this source, when the sign of peace is called for, it should meet the above criteria.

The article continues:

Finally, “Redemptionis Sacramentum,” No. 71, adds a further note: “The practice of the Roman Rite is to be maintained according to which the peace is extended shortly before Holy Communion. For according to the tradition of the Roman Rite, this practice does not have the connotation either of reconciliation or of a remission of sins, but instead signifies peace, communion and charity before the reception of the Most Holy Eucharist. It is rather the Penitential Act to be carried out at the beginning of Mass (especially in its first form) which has the character of reconciliation among brothers and sisters.”

These documents show that both the invitation and actual exchange of peace form part of a single act and are done “if it is appropriate.” If for some good reason the celebrant decides to omit the invitation, then the faithful are not required to exchange the sign of peace among themselves.

“Redemptionis Sacramentum” highlights another reason. The peace exchanged is the Lord’s peace coming from the sacrifice of the altar. An exchange of the sign of peace without an invitation from the altar in a way changes the symbolic value of the rite and could reduce it to signify merely human benevolence.

All the same, pastorally speaking, it is preferable to have some stability in using or omitting the invitation to the sign of peace. If a priest occasionally or irregularly omits the rite he will probably find that the faithful start shaking hands anyway from force of habit. This can lead to confusion.

Some priests omit it for weekday Masses, others include it always. There is no absolute criterion for all cases.

Hmmm…how about that? Apparently the sign of peace is to some extent optional? Imagine that.

Now, for the record, I WOULD like to “take this discussion to it’s most rediculous… conclusions.” THAT is the purpose of hyperbole, and it was intended to illustrate that simply because folks are allowed to skate on something for a protracted period of time AND because it hasn’t been summarily quashed by the Church’s authority does not syllogistically mean the practice is okeydokey and gets an automatic pass.

At the point in the Mass of the Our Father, we are moments away from the “source and summit” of our faith as Catholics–the Eucharist. We are addressing God with the very words Christ himself gave to us as a prayer to the Father. The fact that we are nearly shoulder to shoulder and have, together with the priest, offered up our gifts to the Lord, is statement enough of our community. I really don’t want or need someone’s sweaty mit grabbing my hand and attempting a spiritual “Cumbaya” moment.

But hey, that’s just me. And apparently a few other folks here. And the general understanding of the GIRM by those who don’t have an agenda to push.