Holocaust...con't

[Luminous7]

Imbecile.

---

That’s what I thought, not an ounce too add, and please turn off the light on your way out.

 

[Daizies]

(Edited)

I mean real history books, not the garbage they give out in school. That’s why I said research and academic papers.
I categorically refuse to take any sources from youtube. Unless they can provide a bibliography of source material to back up their assertions, they are useless.

 

[triumphguy]

(Edited)

Maybe he is offended by your line of “reasoning”…

which seems to avoid reason, history, facts and truth and rake up some garbage disseminated by obscure holocaust deniers on the internet.

(Edited)

 

[Daizies]

Maybe he is offended by your line of “reasoning”…

which seems to avoid reason, history, facts and truth and rake up some garbage disseminated by obscure holocaust deniers on the internet.

I’m personally offended that this thread is not closed yet.

I agree. Holocaust deniers so induce rage in me :banghead:

 

[Fairwinds]

this is how the current version of holocaust deniers, posing “reasonable” questions.

the only response is to expose their lies. kudos to those who posted legitimate sources to counter this trash.

 

[agnes_therese]

If the Moderator does not close this thread, then I suggest we continue the discussion to refute holocaust deniers (ignoring this poster until the apology is forthcoming) . . .

Well, he’s made it obvious THAT’s not going to happen.

 

[agnes_therese]

this is how the current version of holocaust deniers, posing “reasonable” questions.

And then refusing to answer any questions you pose in reply, like our OP. Got a question that threatens your conspiracy theory? Just ignore it and hope it goes away. Preferably while telling those who posed it how stupid they are compared to you.

 

[Michael_Francis]

i66.photobucket.com/albums/h244/corona_stellarum/Smilies/nun_slapping_ruler_hg_clr-1.gif
***Okay, look here People.

This topic, distasteful and ludicrous as it is does not violate any Forum Rules** or Banned Topics. Unlike a number of posts that you will now find missing or edited to remove things that did indeed break rules. Citations have been issued and will be again if any further such posts occur.

It was not posted in the correct forum to begin with and I have moved it here and can assure you that I will be monitoring it carefully.

I encourage you to charitably refute it accordingly for the benefit of all.*

 

[Forkfoot]

I strongly disagree. This is extremely thinly-disguised hate speech and wouldn’t be tolerated on any other type of forum other than a completely unmoderated one or a white supremacist group. It makes you look bad, it makes this forum look bad, and most importantly it makes Catholicism look bad. I won’t participate as long as this filth is tolerated here.

 

[Forkfoot]

I keep remembering an interview with Mel Gibson’s dad after Gibson made all those anti-semitic comments, in which the elder Mr. Gibson publicly denied the Holocaust. This was not long after The Passion had been released, and I remember reading a lot of stuff about Catholics in general and traditionalists in particular from the public. It looks bad, dude. A hardline stance against this idiocy is needed.

 

[Aloysium]

---

Thank you also interesting facts. But I never said I was a holocaust denier.

No you didn’t, your actions do.

 

[Forkfoot]

I just wanna add that this “Well hold on, I’m entitled to my opinion like anyone else, I’m not breaking any laws” shtick is a very common tactic in hate speech of all sorts. Saying “Hold on, he’s entitled to his opinion, let’s hear him out and have an intelligent debate” is just playing into that tactic and giving them a stage to spout their hate from. All opinions are not equal, and shouldn’t be treated as such. The correct response is not to have a polite, respectful conversation with these idiots, the correct response is to call them an idiot, shut them up, and kick them out. Every time.

 

[triumphguy]

Some opinions are beneath contempt and should NOT be allowed. The OP is verging on hate speech and it vitiates against my morals as a Catholic.

It’s a pity that I had to get strident for some attention to be paid to this thread.

 

[Dee_S]

(Edited)
I’d like to know how Br JR would view this thread. Wish he was here, although I shudder to think of the hurt he and others would suffer as a result.

 

[triumphguy]

In a way this kind of argumentation by the OP is akin to posting a pornographic picture on this forum and coyly asking forum members to rate it for its aesthetic value.

If a pornographic picture should not be allowed here, then neither should threads like this.

 

[Dee_S]

this is how the current version of holocaust deniers, posing “reasonable” questions.

the only response is to expose their lies. kudos to those who posted legitimate sources to counter this trash.

Here’s some info on the long since debunked Leuchter Report that the holocaust deniers always drag up as their great triumph of evidence that there was no gassing of Jews in the concentration camps.

**"The Leuchter report is a pseudoscientific[1] document authored by American execution technician Fred A. Leuchter, **who was commissioned by Ernst Zündel to defend him at his trial in Canada for distributing false news, namely Holocaust denial material.

At the trial, Leuchter was required to defend the report in his capacity as expert witness; however he was dismissed because during the proceedings it became apparent that he had neither the qualifications nor experience to act in such a position.

"Drawings of where the samples were taken from, the footage of their collection and Leuchter’s notebook were surrendered as permanent evidence to the court,[3] and Leuchter concluded that his findings were based on his “expert knowledge” for gas chamber operation, his visual inspections of what remains of the structures at Auschwitz, and “original drawings and blueprints of some of the facilities”.[2]:163

"… he was examined by the court. It soon became apparent that Leuchter’s credentials were seriously lacking. He admitted that he was not a toxicologist and dismissed the need for having a degree in engineering, to which
the judge responded abruptly:
**
THE COURT: How do you function as an engineer if you don’t have an engineering degree? **
THE WITNESS: Well, I would question, Your Honour, what an engineering degree is. I have a Bachelor of Arts degree and I have the required background training both on the college level and in the field to perform my function as an engineer.
THE COURT: Who determines that? You?
—Exchange between Leuchter and Judge Thomas, Her Majesty the Queen vs. Ernst Zündel, District Court of Ontario 1988, p. 8973.[2]:164

“Similarly, Leuchter claimed that he obtained most of his research material on the camps (including original crematoria blueprints) from the Auschwitz and Majdanek camps’ archives, and testified that these documents had a far more important role in shaping his conclusions than the physical samples he collected did, yet after the trial the director of the Auschwitz museum categorically denied that Leuchter had received any plans or blueprints.[2]:165”

"Judge Ronald Thomas began to label Leuchter’s methodology as “ridiculous” and “preposterous”, dismissing many of the report’s conclusions on the basis that they were based on “second-hand information”, and refused to allow him to testify on the effect of Zyklon B on humans because he had never worked with the substance, and was neither a toxicologist nor a chemist.[2]:166 "

"Judge Thomas dismissed Leuchter’s opinion because it was of “no greater value than that of an ordinary tourist”, and in regards to Leuchter’s opinion said:
**
"His opinion on this report is that there were never any gassings or there was never any exterminations carried on in this facility. As far as I am concerned, from what I’ve heard, he is not capable of giving that opinion…He is not in a position to say, as he said so sweepingly in this report, what could not have been carried on in these facilities.**"
—Judge Thomas, Her Majesty the Queen vs. Ernst Zündel, District Court of Ontario 1988, p. 9049-9050.[2]:166

"Leuchter was also prepared to act as expert witness regarding crematoria ovens despite admitting during cross examination that he had no such expert knowledge.[12] This did not stop him from presenting his own figure of 156 corpses regarding the total daily incineration capacity of the installations at Auschwitz. During cross-examination, Leuchter was presented with a letter written by the Auschwitz Central Construction Office (Auschwitz Zentralbauleitung) of June 28, 1943, from SS-Sturmbannführer Jahrling to SS-Brigadeführer Hans Kammler stating that the five crematoria installations had a collective daily capacity of 4,756 corpses. Leuchter conceded that that this was quite different to his own figure, and that he had never seen the document in question before.[12]"
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leuchter_report

 

[Dee_S]

(Edited)
It is the “kind of argumentation” that has been offensive here. There are charitable ways to conduct a discussion of such a sensitive nature to help humans never disregard this terrible lesson of hatred.

The pope told the leaders, "The hatred and contempt for men, women and children that was manifested in the Shoah was a crime against God and against humanity."

“This should be clear to everyone,” the pope said.
*
“It is beyond question that any denial or minimization of this terrible crime is intolerable and altogether unacceptable,”*Pope Benedict said.

 

[Dee_S]

(Edited)
Absolutely! If an extremely sensitive topic like this cannot be discussed with true charity and consideration for those who have suffered directly because of The Holocaust - in their bodies, hearts and their souls…and also others, who in sympathy have carried their suffering in heart and mind - then best it not be done.

Any poster who cannot present their point of view with the dignity it is due - should refrain from giving offence. And here I’m pretty sure that Pope Benedict would agree.

"The German-born pope repeated what he had said during his visit to Auschwitz:*** “The rulers of the Third Reich wanted to crush the entire Jewish people, to cancel it from the register of the peoples of the earth. Thus the words of the psalm, ‘We are being killed, accounted as sheep for the slaughter,’ were fulfilled in a terrifying way.”***

The pope also told the Jewish leaders that the Catholic Church "is profoundly and irrevocably committed to reject all anti-Semitism" and to build good and lasting relations with the Jewish community.

Reaffirming the importance of remembering the Holocaust, the pope said, "it is my fervent prayer that the memory of this appalling crime will strengthen our determination to heal the wounds that for too long have sullied relations between Christians and Jews."

 

[Dee_S]

A book I read as a teenager was The Hiding Place by Corrie Ten Boom. For those of you who are not familiar with her story, her and her family were Christians who lived in Holland under Nazi rule. They hid Jews in a secret compartment in their home, and helped to have them smuggled out of the country. They were arrested, and several family members died in the concentration camps, and she herself only survived because of a “clerical error.”
Reading this book is what started my interest in history, and in particular WWII. But more than that, it drew me to God, and how He can help us through the most difficult times.

I recall also reading this book. It was a true story.

Also interested in anything WWII and you words made me remember how it also drew me towards God, realizing as you say, He is always there with us through the most difficult times.

Pope Benedict in his Encyclical Letter Spe Salvi gives a heart rendering example of the value of hope in God:

“SPE SALVI facti sumus”—in hope we were saved, says Saint Paul to the Romans, and likewise to us (8:24*Rom *).

“To come to know God—the true God—means to receive hope. We who have always lived with the Christian concept of God, and have grown accustomed to it, have almost ceased to notice that we possess the hope that ensues from a real encounter with this God.

I would like to quote a passage from a letter written by the Vietnamese martyr Paul Le-Bao-Tinh († 1857) which illustrates this transformation of suffering through the power of hope springing from faith.

“I, Paul, in chains for the name of Christ, wish to relate to you the trials besetting me daily, in order that you may be inflamed with love for God and join with me in his praises, for his mercy is for ever (Ps 136 [135]). The prison here is a true image of everlasting Hell: to cruel tortures of every kind—shackles, iron chains, manacles—are added hatred, vengeance, calumnies, obscene speech, quarrels, evil acts, swearing, curses, as well as anguish and grief. But the God who once freed the three children from the fiery furnace is with me always; he has delivered me from these tribulations and made them sweet, for his mercy is for ever. In the midst of these torments, which usually terrify others, I am, by the grace of God, full of joy and gladness, because I am not alone —Christ is with me …

Man is worth so much to God that he himself became man in order to suffer with man in an utterly real way—in flesh and blood—as is revealed to us in the account of Jesus’s Passion. Hence in all human suffering we are joined by one who experiences and carries that suffering* with* us; hence* con-solatio* is present in all suffering, the consolation of God’s compassionate love**—and so the star of hope rises.”
vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/encyclicals/documents/hf_ben-xvi_enc_20071130_spe-salvi_en.html

 

[Dee_S]

I always question why one goes to such great extremes to believe something so contrary to documented evidence.

:curtsey:succinctly put - in your usual style - thank you.