Holocaust...con't

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Continuing to politely refute the OP’s argument is to lend that argument a level of dignity that it simply does not deserve. The fact that the mods chose to not only leave it up but to demand that the OP be treated like any other post on this forum makes them worse than the thread starter in my book. Hate speech will always be out there, but we can respond in a way that sets a strong example for other Catholics and for the whole world. Our task is not to politely show holocaust deniers and white supremacists the flaws in their argument, but to strongly reject them and refuse them a venue for their vitriol, for the sake of the future of our species.
 
Continuing to politely refute the OP’s argument is to lend that argument a level of dignity that it simply does not deserve. The fact that the mods chose to not only leave it up but to demand that the OP be treated like any other post on this forum makes them worse than the thread starter in my book. Hate speech will always be out there, but we can respond in a way that sets a strong example for other Catholics and for the whole world. Our task is not to politely show holocaust deniers and white supremacists the flaws in their argument, but to strongly reject them and refuse them a venue for their vitriol, for the sake of the future of our species.
The only charity I would offer the OP is this:

If he is hungry I would feed him
If he is thirsty I would give him to drink.
If he was homeless I would house him.

But since he is GRAVE error I admonish him to stop. To repent. To turn again.

It is NOT charity to listen to him or his arguments. That is folly and a false understanding of “tolerance.”

Since there is no freedom of speech on a forum I don’t know why this is not shut down.
 
(Edited)
To my mind, it is not the OP’s argument. What we are achieving here is to give information to others viewing this thread who may be in doubt about whether or not it took place.

Where I most strongly agree with you, is that all who even lack respect, never mind the extreme of “hate” speech, should be severly dealt with. Zero tolerance.

It is how it is done which is really the issue. I mean, we have to talk about crimes of hatred wherever they occur, it’s the only path to freedom from their oppression.i.e. Martin Luther King spoke out. In my country Nelson Mandela was spoke out…many examples of freedom fighters exists. Yes, they all suffered…but in a good cause.

If we can help just one more person towards respect the dignity of the down-trodden, we will have achieved something.

You sound like a strong minded person…there’s lots of real evidence out there to end this topic.😉
 
The only charity I would offer the OP is this:

If he is hungry I would feed him
If he is thirsty I would give him to drink.
If he was homeless I would house him.

But since he is GRAVE error I admonish him to stop. To repent. To turn again.

It is NOT charity to listen to him or his arguments. That is folly and a false understanding of “tolerance.”

Since there is no freedom of speech on a forum I don’t know why this is not shut down.
See the little red marker on my earlier post:D. Do you really want that:rolleyes:

I agree that a topic, especially one as sensitive as this one, should always be presented in an objective way, taking special care not to offend.

I’d be surprised if the anti-hate league or whatever you guys call them over there in the US, does not come lurking.
 
I wasn’t being confrontational - there actually is no freedom of speech on a forum. The mods have to abide by the AUP (acceptable use policy) which limits what can be said, and describes the actions they can take.

Eg., this thread is way off topic so they could close it.

I checked the AUP and the holocaust is not a banned topic. On a forum I moderate politics and religion are banned because people get so inflamed. And that’s a motorbike forum.

Our forum also bans pornography and items of morbid interest (photos of vehicle accidents for instance).

This forum is run a little differently since MOST people abide by a similar ethos, and don’t need things delineated so much.
 
(Edited) One would think that a Catholic would take serious consideration what the Holy Father says. I note that the OP is Catholic according to his profile. Pope Benedict admonished Bishop Williamson for giving an ear to these historical revisionists and suggesting they might have a point. He said that it was unacceptable for anyone to deny the suffering of the Jews during WWII.

Yet, this is the area for apologetics. While the OP states he is Catholic, not all here are. So, if you really want to the opinion of some of these fringe elements that are promoting Holocaust denial seriously, then do as I said earlier and visit the Holocaust museum and examine the evidence first hand. If the testimony of tens of thousands is not sufficient for you, then pull up the pictures of the bodies that were killed so recently that the Nazis did not yet have time to bury them and extrapolate the numbers backwards yourself for the three years or so the different camps operated.

I do not think this thread needs to be a bad thing. The suffering of this period was on such a scale we need to remember always what happened. I think we should safely ignore those who question this but have never gone and examined the evidence firsthand. I think we should ignore most vigorously those who ignore the firsthand testimony of so many who have no interest or understanding of why this is even questioned. Finally, I think we need to recognize that the evil of antisemitism, as with prejudice in general, is still alive in the world. I do not go so far as to say that all who question this event hate Jews but that they have listened to someone who listened to someone who made up stories and arguments based on antisemitism or some neo-Nazi fervor.
 
***Note: The same rules apply to all members.

Documented facts are valuable in refuting anything like this (and actually pretty easily done in this case) polemics and vitriol are of no value whatever and willfully ignoring or disobeying the rules and guidelines in my signature line below serve no useful purpose and carries consequences.

There is a right way and a wrong way to do things…
Do things right.***
 
(Edited) One would think that a Catholic would take serious consideration what the Holy Father says. I note that the OP is Catholic according to his profile. Pope Benedict admonished Bishop Williamson for giving an ear to these historical revisionists and suggesting they might have a point. He said that it was unacceptable for anyone to deny the suffering of the Jews during WWII.

Yet, this is the area for apologetics. While the OP states he is Catholic, not all here are. So, if you really want to the opinion of some of these fringe elements that are promoting Holocaust denial seriously, then do as I said earlier and visit the Holocaust museum and examine the evidence first hand. If the testimony of tens of thousands is not sufficient for you, then pull up the pictures of the bodies that were killed so recently that the Nazis did not yet have time to bury them and extrapolate the numbers backwards yourself for the three years or so the different camps operated.

I do not think this thread needs to be a bad thing. The suffering of this period was on such a scale we need to remember always what happened. I think we should safely ignore those who question this but have never gone and examined the evidence firsthand. I think we should ignore most vigorously those who ignore the firsthand testimony of so many who have no interest or understanding of why this is even questioned. Finally, I think we need to recognize that the evil of antisemitism, as with prejudice in general, is still alive in the world. I do not go so far as to say that all who question this event hate Jews but that they have listened to someone who listened to someone who made up stories and arguments based on antisemitism or some neo-Nazi fervor.

Good post well said. Looking back at it maybe I should have worded my original post differently, but I was getting to the point of what the video’s were saying, and I didn’t say I agreed with them entirely. I’m not a scientist, engineer or chemist and can’t decipher from writings weather the gas chambers would have feasibly worked or not. Nor have I investigated this topic enough to draw definite conclusions one way or the other.
I can say that I use to enjoy the study of WWII, but since coming across Holocaust denial sources it now makes me wonder how much of the written/filmed history is true or what the level of accuracy is. Sorry, I come from a finance background and have seen too many scams that totally pulled the wool over the entire world’s eyes until one day the truth came out i.e remember ole Bre-x, yep you make a lie big enough, loud enough and repeat it enough then it’s gotta be true cause everyone else believes it and millions of people can’t be wrong. How many people in the US thought they were rich from real estate and were ready to burn anyone at the stake who suggested the wealth was an illusion when the bubble pops. Just pointing out something about perception and reality

As far as survivor testimonies go, well I use to sit on the edge of my seat listening to these, but when someone like Herman Rosenblat comes along and confesses on national television it was a lie, then claiming it was to shine light on the remembrance of the Holocaust, well that doesn’t do it any just whatsoever. Only perpetuates what else was then fabricated.
 
i66.photobucket.com/albums/h244/corona_stellarum/Smilies/nun_slapping_ruler_hg_clr-1.gif
***Okay, look here People.

This topic, distasteful and ludicrous as it is does not violate any Forum Rules*** or Banned Topics. Unlike a number of posts that you will now find missing or edited to remove things that did indeed break rules. Citations have been issued and will be again if any further such posts occur.

It was not posted in the correct forum to begin with and I have moved it here and can assure you that I will be monitoring it carefully.

I encourage you to charitably refute it accordingly for the benefit of all.

Thank you for your consideration Francis. I started the thread cause I saw the other one and thought it might be the place to get a variety of opinions. I read Catholic Answers regularly to learn about my faith through the exchange of ideas, but didn’t think this would cause such an inflammatory response, as it seems many who I cross paths with simply don’t even understand the debate.
 
However, that single individual, (or even a group of them) who lied does not invalidate the facts that we know from historical sources.

That the Nazis perpetrated a horrendous crime against humanity by their death camps, where millions of people, not just Jews, but Catholics and non-Catholic Christians were put to death, whether in gas chambers, starvation bunkers, or huge shower blocks where they were burned alive is a very well documented fact of history.

Look at the testimonies of survivors who have testified in the war crime trials. Did they all make that up? Apparently the courts didn’t think so now did they?
.
No, the Holocaust is a historical fact that is very highly documented.
Look at these sources.
[The Holocaust (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...6zsALPcpJzo7ZNw&bvm=bv.46340616,d.dmQ&cad=rja) Wing | Jewish Virtual Library
 
I can say that I use to enjoy the study of WWII, but since coming across Holocaust denial sources it now makes me wonder how much of the written/filmed history is true or what the level of accuracy is. Sorry, I come from a finance background and have seen too many scams that totally pulled the wool over the entire world’s eyes until one day the truth came out i.e remember ole Bre-x, yep you make a lie big enough, loud enough and repeat it enough then it’s gotta be true cause everyone else believes it and millions of people can’t be wrong
Do yo believe that a bomb went off at the Boston Marathon? How do we even know there was a World War II or such a man as Hitler? No, the idea of the big lie is not only counter intuitive, it is also illogical. Yet it remains the solid backbone of every conspiracy theory.

Of course history is distorted and inaccurate. This does not mean that the basics are wrong and nothing can be trusted.
 
Here are some more film clips which you also may want to view:
awesomestories.com/history/holocaust-evidence/eisenhowers-proof
After posting this thread, and the youtube links, and discussing your research, I can only hope that you and your family will sit down and watch them all in their entirety. You certainly deserve to know the truth.
:gopray:thank you for kindly pointing the way to those who want to know the truth:tiphat:I respect that.

The following is the introduction to the above link given:
EISENHOWER’S PROOF
Code:
                    **WARNING:  SOME OF THE LINKS IN THIS CHAPTER,  PARTICULARLY THE VIDEO CLIPS, DEPICT GRAPHIC IMAGES OF WAR AND CRIMES  AGAINST HUMANITY.  PROCEED WITH CAUTION.
THE CLIPS ARE PROVIDED AS PRIMARY-SOURCE EVIDENCE OF NAZI ATROCITIES DURING WORLD WAR II. PLEASE PREVIEW ALL VIDEOS BEFORE ALLOWING CHILDREN TO SEE THEM. SOME ARE NOT SUITABLE FOR CHILDREN AT ALL.**

At the end of World War II, General Eisenhower made a decision to personally visit as many Nazi concentration camps as he could. His reason? He wanted to document the camps and their appalling conditions.

Anticipating a time when Nazi atrocities might be denied, General Eisenhower also ordered the filming and photographing of camps as they were liberated. Members of the U.S. Army Signal Corps recorded approximately 80,000 feet of moving film, together with still photographs.

Within months after the war in Europe was over, about 6,000 feet of that film footage was excerpted to create a one-hour documentary called "Nazi Concentration Camp". Prosecutors used the film, which is graphically gruesome, to prove that Nazi leaders, on trial at Nuremberg, had perpetrated unbelievably heinous crimes against humanity.

Thomas Dodd, one of the U.S. prosecutors, introduced the film into evidence on the 29th of November, 1945. When the lights came up, after the trial film was screened, people had a new understanding of what the words “concentration camp” really meant.

Eisenhower wanted to be in as many pictures as possible to prove the death camps really existed. He was sometimes accompanied by Generals Bradley and Patton.

It didn’t take long for Eisenhower’s concerns to materialize. Despite his presence in many photographs, Holocaust deniers persist to this day.
The U.S. National Archives contain a great deal of evidence regarding World War II. What do those archives reveal about the Holocaust?
awesomestories.com/history/holocaust-evidence/eisenhowers-proof
 
Do yo believe that a bomb went off at the Boston Marathon? How do we even know there was a World War II or such a man as Hitler? No, the idea of the big lie is not only counter intuitive, it is also illogical. Yet it remains the solid backbone of every conspiracy theory.

Of course history is distorted and inaccurate. This does not mean that the basics are wrong and nothing can be trusted.
Quite true. As they say “history is written by the victors”, but primary sources do exist to refute any holocaust denial conspiracy theories - as in the previous information and link given by Chosen People.
 

As far as survivor testimonies go, well I use to sit on the edge of my seat listening to these, but when someone like Herman Rosenblat comes along and confesses on national television it was a lie, then claiming it was to shine light on the remembrance of the Holocaust, well that doesn’t do it any just whatsoever. Only perpetuates what else was then fabricated.
While Rosenblat fabricated much of his own personal story in an attempt to get out of debt, it does not discredit the testamonies of thousands of others who span the religious and cultural groups that the Nazi’s attempted to exterminate, not that the events aside from his own personal story were false. I was raised with Death Camp survivors. The purpotrators admitted what happened, the documentation and the evidence not only points to it having happened, but sadly is not the first or last time that such horrors have been seen.
 
Something else to consider is the motivation behind a supposed Holocaust invention. What would it serve? There was no need to demonize a defeated enemy. The reason could be Zionism, but why would the allies need to perpetuate a lie for that end. We won. We could pretty much draw the map as we wanted. In fact, we did. Besides, there was no need to inflate the horror. The atrocities committed on thousands would have sufficed Zionists as much as millions.

Perhaps there is something in the human psyche that doesn’t want to accept that such large scale inhumanity could exist. I understand that, but the evidence is overwhelming. You could take almost any war prior to 1940 and not have as much evidence that it had even been fought. Yet you do not have people doubting the existence of the War of 1812.
 
An interesting train of thought,👍 pnewton.

This article by Israel W Charny opens up some deeper thinking on the matter.
The Psychological Satisfaction of Denials of the Holocaust or Other Genocides by Non-Extremists or Bigots, and Even by Known Scholars

"Presented originally as an Invited Address to Conference in New York, April 1995, on “Genocide and Holocaust: Armenian and Jewish Perspectives” sponsored by the Israel Colloquium and the Krikor and Clara Zohrab Information Center of the Diocese of the Armenian Church of Armenia.

*“Denials of known genocides are not only the work of bigots, such as anti-semites and neo-nazis who deny the Holocaust or Turkish ideologues who deny the history of the Armenian Genocide, but are voiced by many people in all walks of life, and even by bona fide respectable academicians. It is important to understand the motivations and thinking and mind formulations through which such denials are constructed and promoted.” *

“The present paper focuses on a concept of ‘innocent denial’ where the denier really may not be consciously entirely aware of the facts and not necessarily aware of their personal interests in choosing to join with deniers of a known genocide.”

(I am posting only the Conclusion as it is a very long article)
Conclusion
Denials of the Armenian Genocide and the Holocaust challenge all of us who seek to preserve not only the historical record, but also a sense of tragedy and moral outrage over these events. It is my judgment that only as we become more capable of analyzing the dynamics of any given denial will we be in a position to create better strategies for counterattacking and fighting the denials and the deniers.

Taner Akçam, a Turkish scholar who is affiliated with a research institute in Hamburg, who has stated the importance of understanding the dynamics of perpetrators is one of the rare but growing number of Turkish scholars who acknowledge the Armenian Genocide: “If you want ‘to understand’ and analyse collectively committed cruelty, and you wish to prevent the repetition of such events, then you will not find a solution if you direct your attention primarily to the group of ‘victims.’ Attention must be directed to the ‘perpetrators’ in order to uncover a series of ‘conscious or unconscious’ mechanisms which underlie their actions, for it is the activation of these mechanisms that makes these people ‘perpetrators’” (Akçam, 1995, p. 353).

The same can be said of the importance of our understanding deniers of known genocides, who are, for all practical purposes, accomplices of genocide even after the fact of the murders.

On a metaphoric level, denial is a virus which has many different forms, and which changes its forms. It is especially important to note that the different strategies of denial can be mixed with one another.

We must fight denials because the denial of genocide is a crucial symbolic and ideological process which not only follows every genocide after it has taken place, but is a process which is intended to desensitize and make possible the emergence of new forms of genocidal violence to peoples in the future (see Charny, 1992a, 1999).

We must create new means for fighting denials and deniers in academia, in the mainstream of public education, as well as in the mainstreams of the media. I have expressed the hope that we can establish a Commission to Combat Denials of the Holocaust, the Armenian Genocide and All Known Genocides. I envision such a Commission as consisting of representatives from a variety of academic disciplines, and also including applied specialists in public opinion polling, media professionals, advertising executives, and indeed popular folk-culture heroes and political leaders, and also ecumenical religious leaders, all brought together to develop a broad-based approach to insisting on the integrity and rationality of the historical truths of the major genocides that civilization is obligated to remember in humility and repentance.

Most of all, we need to link the battles against denials to civilization’s obligation to recommit itself to the cardinal principle, “Thou Shalt Not Kill,” for that is the real issue underlying denials of genocide.(my bold)
ideajournal.com/articles.php?id=27
 
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